My point is that by the time you have the paper, in either case, there is zero reliable proof that you can do either job. Real world work experience (successfully ran a sparky business, or successfully held a job for a few years) counts far more than the paper does.
If you can’t handle the trade, a company’s not going to keep you on, and the next company will look at your apprenticeship record and see your lack of training. From there you’ve flunked out.
The system protects itself. So yes if you have a ticket, you can atleast do something in that trade. A degree, IS just a piece of paper. A trade certificate shows you are competent and able to complete tasks. And be able to stick something through to completion (4 years). So yes, that “paper” holds a lot of information. The person while training also builds up a portfolio that they can use to show to future clients or employers of the work they did. A degree doesn’t allow any of this, or provide any information about the person. Other than they could “afford” to sit in a class for a few years.
To finish an apprenticeship you need to hold that job for four years dude… while working on the jobs that entire time…. they’ve met your arbitrary distinction lol.
Your point is, you apparently don’t know how an apprenticeship works.
I agree with you overall - the paper is important and it holds a lot of weight.
There’s also a lot of hiring in smaller companies that overlooks certificates. On the job experience is weighted pretty heavily as well in the trades. If you can’t handle it, you’ll get fired eventually, but companies are happy to employ mediocre trade workers without certs.
Unfortunately not every trade is “regulated” the same either. Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.
Theres also parents pushing their kids through their companies, but the schooling is also still a hurdle to get through. Got to pass the school work and the shop work and final test each year.
Fourth year school you had to make a desk in 32 hours. Every hour over that to 40 costs you points. It’s interesting because it forces you to decide if it’s worth time fixing something for the extra points for a few lost to time. So there’s lots of little hidden information in that trade ticket.
Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.
I’ve worked in various blue collar/trade jobs and this is true almost all the way across the board. You can get hired on experience, but the certs make you invaluable.
You are assuming that the company cares about training, and not just a source of cheap labour. Apprentices are paid barely above minimum wage in Aus, and there are kickbacks to the companies to encourage employing them.
If it worked as you described (which is how it should work), I would absolutely agree with you, but the system in Aus happily churns out some absolute duds. Just like the uni system.
Also, for what its worth, many uni degrees include a year of paid internship, but there are similar issues that allow duds to sail through there as well.
Actually where I am, it’s a government enforced sponsorship, so both sides need to do things correctly.
A first year apprentice has to be paid 60% of the lowest paid journeyman, and if you don’t go to school every 24 months they kick you out. Last years get 90%.
Company has to hire you back on after completing the school stint, they need to fill out your blue book before firing you, so the next company can continue your training.
We also know loosely about other countries regulations, since we are certified semi internationally with our red seal program.
There’s so many differences between countries on this that I think you both are arguing ineffectively.
In the US, there are union jobs that require apprenticeships and labor hours. There are also plenty of companies that will hire non-union workers with no certs. There’s a lot of variance.
It’s still the same here, but the schooling and the cert make it so it’s not a piece of paper, and that’s universal. Places without schooling (looking at you USA) are the different ones. You can’t get the cert without schooling and passing a relevant shop test, so having a trade ticket holds a hell of a lot weight.
I would take someone with an EU or Aus cert over the USA, just because of how they do apprenticeships there.
Nothing they’ve stated doesn’t also happen here, it’s why I asked where they were. If they were located in the US, they would partly have a point.
But Australias system is pretty good.
You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.
You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.
I wasn’t arguing with you, I was pointing out there’s different standards. I’m very aware of how certification works in the trades.
My point is that by the time you have the paper, in either case, there is zero reliable proof that you can do either job. Real world work experience (successfully ran a sparky business, or successfully held a job for a few years) counts far more than the paper does.
If you can’t handle the trade, a company’s not going to keep you on, and the next company will look at your apprenticeship record and see your lack of training. From there you’ve flunked out.
The system protects itself. So yes if you have a ticket, you can atleast do something in that trade. A degree, IS just a piece of paper. A trade certificate shows you are competent and able to complete tasks. And be able to stick something through to completion (4 years). So yes, that “paper” holds a lot of information. The person while training also builds up a portfolio that they can use to show to future clients or employers of the work they did. A degree doesn’t allow any of this, or provide any information about the person. Other than they could “afford” to sit in a class for a few years.
To finish an apprenticeship you need to hold that job for four years dude… while working on the jobs that entire time…. they’ve met your arbitrary distinction lol.
Your point is, you apparently don’t know how an apprenticeship works.
I agree with you overall - the paper is important and it holds a lot of weight.
There’s also a lot of hiring in smaller companies that overlooks certificates. On the job experience is weighted pretty heavily as well in the trades. If you can’t handle it, you’ll get fired eventually, but companies are happy to employ mediocre trade workers without certs.
Unfortunately not every trade is “regulated” the same either. Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.
Theres also parents pushing their kids through their companies, but the schooling is also still a hurdle to get through. Got to pass the school work and the shop work and final test each year.
Fourth year school you had to make a desk in 32 hours. Every hour over that to 40 costs you points. It’s interesting because it forces you to decide if it’s worth time fixing something for the extra points for a few lost to time. So there’s lots of little hidden information in that trade ticket.
I still have that desk actually.
I’ve worked in various blue collar/trade jobs and this is true almost all the way across the board. You can get hired on experience, but the certs make you invaluable.
You are assuming that the company cares about training, and not just a source of cheap labour. Apprentices are paid barely above minimum wage in Aus, and there are kickbacks to the companies to encourage employing them.
If it worked as you described (which is how it should work), I would absolutely agree with you, but the system in Aus happily churns out some absolute duds. Just like the uni system.
Also, for what its worth, many uni degrees include a year of paid internship, but there are similar issues that allow duds to sail through there as well.
Actually where I am, it’s a government enforced sponsorship, so both sides need to do things correctly.
A first year apprentice has to be paid 60% of the lowest paid journeyman, and if you don’t go to school every 24 months they kick you out. Last years get 90%.
Company has to hire you back on after completing the school stint, they need to fill out your blue book before firing you, so the next company can continue your training.
We also know loosely about other countries regulations, since we are certified semi internationally with our red seal program.
That sounds like a far better system then, so definitely explains the difference in quality.
There’s so many differences between countries on this that I think you both are arguing ineffectively.
In the US, there are union jobs that require apprenticeships and labor hours. There are also plenty of companies that will hire non-union workers with no certs. There’s a lot of variance.
It’s still the same here, but the schooling and the cert make it so it’s not a piece of paper, and that’s universal. Places without schooling (looking at you USA) are the different ones. You can’t get the cert without schooling and passing a relevant shop test, so having a trade ticket holds a hell of a lot weight.
I would take someone with an EU or Aus cert over the USA, just because of how they do apprenticeships there.
I think most would agree it’s better to require a certain amount of schooling for any trade.
The user you’re arguing with is from Australia though.
There’s a large variance in requirements depending on the country you’re working in.
Nothing they’ve stated doesn’t also happen here, it’s why I asked where they were. If they were located in the US, they would partly have a point.
But Australias system is pretty good.
You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.
I wasn’t arguing with you, I was pointing out there’s different standards. I’m very aware of how certification works in the trades.