This is the de-Googled, more secure version of the Android Open Source Project. GrapheneOS, the modified version of Android that is devoid of Google while...
I’ll take my chances with the CCP over ICE any fucking day of the year.
We are always under more threat from our own governments than a foreign one and I do not live in China or China-aligned country. I’m safer with my data in Beijing than in Redmond.
And that’s the worst case scenario. Likely, it’s enough of a win for China to have an OS that the US doesn’t have backdoors into without China needing their own.
Back when Grindr was owned by a Chinese company there was concerns that data from the platform could be used to blackmail western politicians and civil servants.
I can’t remember the details but my point is - just because you don’t live in China it doesn’t mean you’re risk free.
Source that China is using its backdoors to share information with the US? I mean, it very well might be, at least it’s an extra step. I’m saying I’d rather not share my information with anyone, but if i had to choose, it would be a foreign government ahead of my own.
Not what I meant, the US is grabbing all the information on their own, don’t think they aren’t. Maybe some of you more sophisticated computer heads can avoid it, but I wouldn’t expect it.
They have everything compromised on a basic level, basic levels. China could sell your information back to the US too though in some kind of deal.
But yeah I agree, I’d rather have foreign governments having it than mine own. But it’s near impossible for a layman, or person without substantial resources, to keep their information out of the hands of the NSA and data brokers, I strongly suspect, as Edward Snowden informed us.
You believe GrapheneOS is not able protect against Motorola? Or do you think GrapheneOS is weaking the OS specifically for Motorola? Do you believe that’s also the case for Google with their Pixels and the USgovt? Are you saying stay on stock Android? Is there another mobile OS you are recommending? Your message is not clear and you seem to be making unsubstantiated claims with no evidence to back it up.
Devices are carefully chosen based on their merits rather than the project aiming to have broad device support. Broad device support is counter to the aims of the project, and the project will eventually be engaging in hardware and firmware level improvements rather than only offering suggestions and bug reports upstream for those areas. Much of the work on the project involves changes that are specific to different devices, and officially supported devices are the ones targeted by most of this ongoing work.
Hardware, firmware and software specific to devices like drivers play a huge role in the overall security of a device. The goal of the project is not to slightly improve some aspects of insecure devices and supporting a broad set of devices would be directly counter to the values of the project. A lot of the low-level work also ends up being fairly tied to the hardware.
Non-exhaustive list of requirements for future devices, which are standards met or exceeded by current Pixel devices:
Support for using alternate operating systems including full hardware security functionality
Complete monthly Android Security Bulletin patches without any regular delays longer than a week for device support code (firmware, drivers and HALs)
At least 5 years of updates from launch for device support code with phones (Pixels now have 7) and 7 years with tablets
Device support code updated to new monthly, quarterly and yearly releases of AOSP within several months to provide new security improvements (Pixels receive these in the month they’re released)
Linux 6.1, 6.6 or 6.12 Generic Kernel Image (GKI) support
Hardware accelerated virtualization usable by GrapheneOS (ideally pKVM to match Pixels but another usable implementation may be acceptable)
Hardware memory tagging (ARM MTE or equivalent)
Hardware-based coarse grained Control Flow Integrity (CFI) for baseline coverage where type-based CFI isn’t used or can’t be deployed (BTI/PAC, CET IBT or equivalent)
PXN, SMEP or equivalent
PAN, SMAP or equivalent
Isolated radios (cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, NFC, etc.), GPU, SSD, media encode and decode, image processor and other components
Support for A/B updates of both the firmware and OS images with automatic rollback if the initial boot fails one or more times
Verified boot with rollback protection for firmware
Verified boot with rollback protection for the OS (Android Verified Boot)
Verified boot key fingerprint for yellow boot state displayed with a secure hash (non-truncated SHA-256 or better)
StrongBox keystore provided by secure element
Hardware key attestation support for the StrongBox keystore
Attest key support for hardware key attestation to provide pinning support
Weaver disk encryption key derivation throttling provided by secure element
Insider attack resistance for updates to the secure element (Owner user authentication required before updates are accepted)
Inline disk encryption acceleration with wrapped key support
64-bit-only device support code
Wi-Fi anonymity support including MAC address randomization, probe sequence number randomization and no other leaked identifiers
Support for disabling USB data and also USB as a whole at a hardware level in the USB controller
Reset attack mitigation for firmware-based boot modes such as fastboot mode zeroing memory left over from the OS and delaying opening up attack surface such as USB functionality until that’s completed
Debugging features such as JTAG or serial debugging must be inaccessible while the device is locked
In order to support a device, the appropriate resources also need to be available and dedicated towards it. Releases for each supported device need to be robust and stable, with all standard functionality working properly and testing for each of the releases.
The expectation is for people to buy a secure device meeting our requirements to run GrapheneOS. Broad device support would imply mainly supporting very badly secured devices unable to support our features. It would also take a substantial amount of resources away from our work on privacy and security, especially since a lot of it is closely tied to the hardware such as the USB-C port control and fixing or working around memory corruption bugs uncovered by our features. We plan to partner with OEMs to have devices produced meeting all our requirements, providing additional privacy/security features beyond them and ideally shipping with GrapheneOS rather than massively lowering our standards.
That’s all very nice but not many of us are willing to buy a $1000 phone (or an obsolete Pixel) to get Graphene. They soon won’t be able to run it on new Pixels, and also the stuff about AOSP updates stops mattering since AOSP itself is nearly dead. The obsession with security chips (fighting the seized phone attack while comparatively ignoring much more relevant threats) is another misplaced priority. It’s the old notion of “fence post security”, putting a 100 foot fence post in the middle of the desert expecting the attacker to try to climb over it instead of going around it.1 And again, I’m amused at the idea of the US and Chinese governments allowing a Motorola (Lenovo) Graphene to be sold if it’s really that secure.
We need a de-googled Android fork (maybe Lineage is that) on mass market phones using the hardware that those phones have. Otherwise we’re acquiescing to the notion that Elon Musk deserves more privacy than Joe Schmoe when it should be the other way around.
That’s all very nice but not many of us are willing to buy a $1000 phone (or an obsolete Pixel) to get Graphene.
Pixel “a” series phones typically sell for under $500 and support GrapheneOS.
They soon won’t be able to run it on new Pixels, and also the stuff about AOSP updates stops mattering since AOSP itself is nearly dead.
Source for this?
The obsession with security chips (fighting the seized phone attack while comparatively ignoring much more relevant threats) is another misplaced priority. It’s the old notion of “fence post security”, putting a 100 foot fence post in the middle of the desert expecting the attacker to try to climb over it instead of going around it.1
The obsession with security chips is what allows Pixels and iPhones to be the most secure devices on the planet. They have some of the most researched technologies being used here. You’re literally just throwing it away based on…your link to a harry potter book? Seriously, look at the source you just shared. Its not even relevant 😂
And again, I’m amused at the idea of the US and Chinese governments allowing a Motorola (Lenovo) Graphene to be sold if it’s really that secure.
What are they going to do, ban security chips like they tried to ban encryption in the 90s?
We need a de-googled Android fork (maybe Lineage is that) on mass market phones using the hardware that those phones have. Otherwise we’re acquiescing to the notion that Elon Musk deserves more privacy than Joe Schmoe when it should be the other way around.
GrapheneOS and LineageOS are already degoogled… LineageOS is extremely subpar when it comes to security since they dont enforce it onto their hardware. GrapheneOS actually enforces it and wont work unless it has those specific security features. LineageOS doesnt solve the problem you were concerned about in your post.
The obsession with security chips is what allows Pixels and iPhones to be the most secure devices on the planet.
I remember the govt trying to muscle Apple into unlocking someone’s iphone, til they suddenly stopped because they found Cellebrite could unlock it instead. There have been several new iphone generations since then but I haven’t heard about govt muscling anytime recently. So I have to infer they can still unlock iphones. As for Pixels, this is in Dutch but very recent: https://www.omroepbrabant.nl/nieuws/6023856/drievoudige-moord-in-oosterhout-telefoon-van-verdachte-gekraakt
Machine translation of main paragraphs:
The Netherlands Forensic Institute (NFI) has unlocked the Google Pixel phone belonging to 29-year-old Veronica K., according to the prosecutor. “A large number of images of weapons and stacks of cash were found on her phone. There are also a large number of chat messages that can now be read.” K. is alleged to have facilitated the murder by supporting the perpetrators.
The prosecutor expects to receive the first results from the NFI on Thursday. During the hearing, the prosecutor also said there is good reason to hope that the NFI will be able to unlock the Google Pixel phones belonging to the other two suspects as well.
So I think you’re putting too much faith in this stuff. I will ask my crypto homies if they have any recent info about phone attacks though.
More relevantly, most secure devices AGAINST WHAT? You’re talking about a locked phone attack which is the absolute least of most users’ worries. The phone is so insecure in everyday use that the border patrol is near irrelevant. Plus users including paranoids like me don’t have any opsec to speak of. When was the last time you crossed a border with an Android phone anyway? I don’t think I’ve ever done that. Like most people I don’t leave the country that often. Last time I did was before I switched to Android, IIRC. I might have had an analog or 2G flip phone or something. If I travel somewhere again it’s not that big a deal to leave my Android phone at home, as I mentioned before.
Even in the border patrol picture, Graphene and TPM won’t protect you from what used to be called rubber-hose cryptanalysis (xkcd.com/538). They’re defending from the wrong threat.
Look, I understand the advantages of crypto hardware. I’ve programmed it and written simulators for it. But, the way to really keep cryptography in people’s hands is to make it not require special hardware. Thus I’m skeptical that the government hates Graphene, but it really did hate PGP back in the day.
If I get to add new hardware to phones, TPM would be on my list but not at the top. First might be something like POCSAG (plus build out the pager network again) so you can receive text messages without transmitting anything or revealing your location. Second, third, etc. would be in a similar vein.
If you read what I originally wrote I mentioned that Motorola had done most of the work in porting GOS to their hardware. To me that sounds like Motorola/Lenovo having oversight of both hardware and software. I’m not an expert in the capabilities of the Chinese state but I’d put money on them using their influence to give them an advantage on GOS.
Again, I’m not a fan of US or Chinese tech. I’m not a fan of either regime. I don’t know what the alternatives are. I’m on an older Pixel running GOS but I won’t be upgrading to Motorola - once this phone dies I’ll probably get a dumb phone or give up mobiles entirely.
Good luck, dumb phone means no encryption, SMS and MMS are stored plaintext and freely shared with US three letters and phone convos have been spied on en masse since the 80s.
For that to be effective you’d have to give up phones, smart, dumb, even carphones and landlines. Not only that, you’d have to reliably know your contacts are never contacting you through their phones, windows PCs, etc, that all themselves have that compromised HW as well. Realistically you’d need to fall back on the postal service, but people can steam open letters, so you’ll need directly employed couriers, but can you really trust anyone else? So you need to hand deliver it, but can you really trust your contact to burn after reading? Better say it face to face, if you can be sure they (or third parties) aren’t recording, but then Flock knows they were with you and they could be tortured later.
Good luck, dumb phone means no encryption, SMS and MMS are stored plaintext and freely shared with US three letters and phone convos have been spied on en masse since the 80s.
That wouldn’t be an issue, if say, the dumb phone existed for emergencies only.
you’d have to give up phones
I did mention that as a possibility
Realistically you’d need to fall back on the postal service, but people can steam open letters
Well there’s always carrier pigeons and jungle drums.
Your argument is extrapolating way too much. You constructed this overcomplicated chain of thought that supposedly proves GOS sold out because… They got a manufacturer to build hardware that meets GOS requirements?
This is no different from ZOG, deep state or Blackrock conspiracy theories.
You constructed this overcomplicated chain of thought that supposedly proves GOS sold out
Actually, that’s not what I’m saying. GOS is a small team, and they’ve confirmed that most of the work has been left to Motorola/Lenovo. Given what we know about the Chinese state, its not a stretch to imagine that interference has happened.
And I’m not arguing anything. All of what I’ve said is possible based on what we know (through verifiable information in the public domain) about the activities of the Chinese state. If you choose to call that a conspiracy theory thats up to you.
…and Motorola is owned by Lenovo, which is effectively controlled by the Chinese state.
I love GrapheneOS but jumping into bed with the CCP is bad, bad idea.
Edit: I’m not a fan of US tech either, and this isn’t an “I hate China” post. They are both awful countries.
Canadian here, I’ll take CCP over GOP.
I don’t really want either. Its not a binary choice.
What’s enslaving hundreds of millions of people to work 6 days a week 12 hours a day compared to the US president that says mean things eh?
Source: made it the fuck up
Homie, ITS ALL China, Vietnam, Taiwan, south korea or maybe malaysia made. I’m speaking to the level of spying I want on my phone.
I’ll take my chances with the CCP over ICE any fucking day of the year.
We are always under more threat from our own governments than a foreign one and I do not live in China or China-aligned country. I’m safer with my data in Beijing than in Redmond.
And that’s the worst case scenario. Likely, it’s enough of a win for China to have an OS that the US doesn’t have backdoors into without China needing their own.
You know the two aren’t really the same, right?
That’s the point: I don’t even know the name of the Chinese agency I would even theoretically need to worry about.
are you proud of not knowing something?
Back when Grindr was owned by a Chinese company there was concerns that data from the platform could be used to blackmail western politicians and civil servants.
I can’t remember the details but my point is - just because you don’t live in China it doesn’t mean you’re risk free.
I’m neither a politician nor a civil servant, and if I were, as a leftist, I’d be more threatened by Trump having my data than Xi Jinping.
Do I just keep repeating this or…?
Edit: yeah, as yourself point out: the threat China poses is giving your data to your government. lol
That’s worse, not better. Ignorance of the danger is not an advantage.
I find your inability to understand why an American is more afraid of ICE than a Chinese government agency really perplexing.
But, in honor of your concern, I will forthwith carry a rock that keeps away Chinese agents.
that’s. not. what. you. were. saying.
you are just ignorant and proud of it.
Your data is going to the US government and data brokers, even if you don’t know it.
Source that China is using its backdoors to share information with the US? I mean, it very well might be, at least it’s an extra step. I’m saying I’d rather not share my information with anyone, but if i had to choose, it would be a foreign government ahead of my own.
I’m not sure where I’m going wrong, there.
Not what I meant, the US is grabbing all the information on their own, don’t think they aren’t. Maybe some of you more sophisticated computer heads can avoid it, but I wouldn’t expect it.
They have everything compromised on a basic level, basic levels. China could sell your information back to the US too though in some kind of deal.
But yeah I agree, I’d rather have foreign governments having it than mine own. But it’s near impossible for a layman, or person without substantial resources, to keep their information out of the hands of the NSA and data brokers, I strongly suspect, as Edward Snowden informed us.
Yup. And if I were a foreign government interested in collecting data, I’d definitely start up a low-cost VPN. You can’t trust anyone.
You think they could do something on the hardware level after flash grapeneos?
I think Lenovo would’ve been prevented from teaming up with Graphene if there wasn’t a way around its security measures, be that hardware or software.
You believe GrapheneOS is not able protect against Motorola? Or do you think GrapheneOS is weaking the OS specifically for Motorola? Do you believe that’s also the case for Google with their Pixels and the USgovt? Are you saying stay on stock Android? Is there another mobile OS you are recommending? Your message is not clear and you seem to be making unsubstantiated claims with no evidence to back it up.
Um yes? How do you protect against someone who literally controls the hardware?
Ask GrapheneOS. Thats literally their mission.
Device support
That’s all very nice but not many of us are willing to buy a $1000 phone (or an obsolete Pixel) to get Graphene. They soon won’t be able to run it on new Pixels, and also the stuff about AOSP updates stops mattering since AOSP itself is nearly dead. The obsession with security chips (fighting the seized phone attack while comparatively ignoring much more relevant threats) is another misplaced priority. It’s the old notion of “fence post security”, putting a 100 foot fence post in the middle of the desert expecting the attacker to try to climb over it instead of going around it.1 And again, I’m amused at the idea of the US and Chinese governments allowing a Motorola (Lenovo) Graphene to be sold if it’s really that secure.
We need a de-googled Android fork (maybe Lineage is that) on mass market phones using the hardware that those phones have. Otherwise we’re acquiescing to the notion that Elon Musk deserves more privacy than Joe Schmoe when it should be the other way around.
1 hpmor.com chapter 115.
Pixel “a” series phones typically sell for under $500 and support GrapheneOS.
Source for this?
The obsession with security chips is what allows Pixels and iPhones to be the most secure devices on the planet. They have some of the most researched technologies being used here. You’re literally just throwing it away based on…your link to a harry potter book? Seriously, look at the source you just shared. Its not even relevant 😂
What are they going to do, ban security chips like they tried to ban encryption in the 90s?
GrapheneOS and LineageOS are already degoogled… LineageOS is extremely subpar when it comes to security since they dont enforce it onto their hardware. GrapheneOS actually enforces it and wont work unless it has those specific security features. LineageOS doesnt solve the problem you were concerned about in your post.
This is a start: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/117140352254892456
I remember the govt trying to muscle Apple into unlocking someone’s iphone, til they suddenly stopped because they found Cellebrite could unlock it instead. There have been several new iphone generations since then but I haven’t heard about govt muscling anytime recently. So I have to infer they can still unlock iphones. As for Pixels, this is in Dutch but very recent: https://www.omroepbrabant.nl/nieuws/6023856/drievoudige-moord-in-oosterhout-telefoon-van-verdachte-gekraakt
Machine translation of main paragraphs:
So I think you’re putting too much faith in this stuff. I will ask my crypto homies if they have any recent info about phone attacks though.
More relevantly, most secure devices AGAINST WHAT? You’re talking about a locked phone attack which is the absolute least of most users’ worries. The phone is so insecure in everyday use that the border patrol is near irrelevant. Plus users including paranoids like me don’t have any opsec to speak of. When was the last time you crossed a border with an Android phone anyway? I don’t think I’ve ever done that. Like most people I don’t leave the country that often. Last time I did was before I switched to Android, IIRC. I might have had an analog or 2G flip phone or something. If I travel somewhere again it’s not that big a deal to leave my Android phone at home, as I mentioned before.
Even in the border patrol picture, Graphene and TPM won’t protect you from what used to be called rubber-hose cryptanalysis (xkcd.com/538). They’re defending from the wrong threat.
Look, I understand the advantages of crypto hardware. I’ve programmed it and written simulators for it. But, the way to really keep cryptography in people’s hands is to make it not require special hardware. Thus I’m skeptical that the government hates Graphene, but it really did hate PGP back in the day.
If I get to add new hardware to phones, TPM would be on my list but not at the top. First might be something like POCSAG (plus build out the pager network again) so you can receive text messages without transmitting anything or revealing your location. Second, third, etc. would be in a similar vein.
If you read what I originally wrote I mentioned that Motorola had done most of the work in porting GOS to their hardware. To me that sounds like Motorola/Lenovo having oversight of both hardware and software. I’m not an expert in the capabilities of the Chinese state but I’d put money on them using their influence to give them an advantage on GOS.
Again, I’m not a fan of US or Chinese tech. I’m not a fan of either regime. I don’t know what the alternatives are. I’m on an older Pixel running GOS but I won’t be upgrading to Motorola - once this phone dies I’ll probably get a dumb phone or give up mobiles entirely.
Good luck, dumb phone means no encryption, SMS and MMS are stored plaintext and freely shared with US three letters and phone convos have been spied on en masse since the 80s.
For that to be effective you’d have to give up phones, smart, dumb, even carphones and landlines. Not only that, you’d have to reliably know your contacts are never contacting you through their phones, windows PCs, etc, that all themselves have that compromised HW as well. Realistically you’d need to fall back on the postal service, but people can steam open letters, so you’ll need directly employed couriers, but can you really trust anyone else? So you need to hand deliver it, but can you really trust your contact to burn after reading? Better say it face to face, if you can be sure they (or third parties) aren’t recording, but then Flock knows they were with you and they could be tortured later.
That wouldn’t be an issue, if say, the dumb phone existed for emergencies only.
I did mention that as a possibility
Well there’s always carrier pigeons and jungle drums.
Even jungle drums, you’d need your own drum-language. If the rest of the tribe knows it…
You could book cypher all of your comms, I guess.
I think you’ve overestimated how much I want to communicate with other people 😅
Your argument is extrapolating way too much. You constructed this overcomplicated chain of thought that supposedly proves GOS sold out because… They got a manufacturer to build hardware that meets GOS requirements?
This is no different from ZOG, deep state or Blackrock conspiracy theories.
Actually, that’s not what I’m saying. GOS is a small team, and they’ve confirmed that most of the work has been left to Motorola/Lenovo. Given what we know about the Chinese state, its not a stretch to imagine that interference has happened.
And I’m not arguing anything. All of what I’ve said is possible based on what we know (through verifiable information in the public domain) about the activities of the Chinese state. If you choose to call that a conspiracy theory thats up to you.
And jumping into bed with the NSA?
Huh, you’re right. I had not realized that had happened.
It looks like it’s just their phone division, Motorola Mobility.
Damn the CCP for building secure hardware!