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Yes, clearly leftism is the complete and total enemy of vegans and vegetarians. Surely conservative and liberals will be the true allies. Stunning argument.
You can boil vegetables in beef tallow for the electrolytes
Notable case of Goomba fallacy.
There surely are fire breathing anti capitalist types who have some personal animosity against vegans but it seems likely these are not always the same people.
I’ve met a lot. Some of them even write books lol. Check out gelderloos for example
I find leftist political events very isolating since rejecting carnism. It’s hard to take people talking about fairness and humanitarianism seriously when they still have the flesh of vulnerable individuals stuck between their teeth. The whole time I’m there, that’s all I’m thinking. But you know it’s not going to be received well if you say anything…
What
Almost there, keep going
And I thought vegans are normally considered to be part of the woke left, at least by every outsider…
Hence the paradox of veganism, according to the right it’s a woke leftist thing. That is until you hang out with woke leftists and they are like ‘yeah, no we don’t support veganism’.
If there is one thing lemme has taught me is that there are a lot of prominent leftist vegans, but leftists in general do not support veganism, but very often are openly anti-vegan.
That’s crazy, I’ve experienced the complete opposite. All the leftists I know either are vegetarian or vegan or are supportive and accepting towards it.
That’s just a mathematical impossibility. A majority of the population identifies as progressive. Vegans are a tiny fringe.
Strictly anecdotal but everyone I know, from leftist to liberal, are positive to others being vegan. They just don’t do it themselves.
That’s not now it works. You can be an ally to queer people while being straight, but you cannot be an ally to vegans while paying for the rape and murder of vulnerable individuals. People who needlessly torture and kill the individuals I love are not my ally, no matter what lip service they pay me.
“I think women should have the right to vote. But not my wife!” “I support child protection laws, but I depend on my kid’s income.” These are not allies! These are merely morally inconsistent people, who we cannot count on for anything, least of all honest self-examination.
An ally gladly cooks vegan, endorses restaurants with good alternatives, eat vegan cuisine.
Everyone has different struggles and priorities. Some people fly, some drive a car, some use LLMs etc. Doesn’t mean they’re evil. For me being vegan is really really easy, and I know that’s not the case for everyone. But I know a lot of people who eat very little dairy and meat because they believe in the cause.
Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that these two statements are not coming out of the same people, and that “the left” is being employed here as a uselessly broad umbrella term including both actual leftists and liberals, as usual
Meanwhile “aggressive” vegan messaging just describes things for what they are, even downplaying them, because there is no way to describe the horrors in words
Vegan, speaking gently and matter-of-factly: “Using animal’s bodies for producing consumable goods involves rape, imprisonment, torture and murder. Leftists are anti-exploitation and anti-capitalist, and using living bodies for profit entails that.”
Leftist, yelling in response: “StoP foRciNG yOUr beLiEfs On mE, vegan, veGaNisM iS a bouRgEOIs phIlOsopHy!”
Vegan to leftist: Hey you know that pig that you’re eating part of probably died screaming in a gas chamber? Are you ok with that?
Leftist: omg stop being so aggressive don’t you know there are reasons why I can’t go vegan?
Also that leftist: You have florp installed on your computer? Don’t you know that one of the developers of florp made some posts on twitter saying they support Israel? Do you like fascism? What is your problem?
Please make it make sense.
Just today I saw a lengthy comment chain were one commenter argued first that is was too expensive to vegan, and after doing the math themselves (and thus showing that it was indeed cheaper), they moved the goalpost to argue that it was inconventient and never gonna happen on a large scale, because of calorie density.
Guess who is also arguing under this post? What a surprise…
Sometimes I’m wondering why I’m even engaging in these discussions at all. By now it’s probably just because I’ve reiterated the statements so often, that I just have the sources easily available, but I always know the outcome before I even post an answer. Such people aren’t really interested in actually discussing veganism.
there are reasons why I can’t go vegan
The one which pisses me off the most are the people claiming their autism prevents them from maintaining a vegan diet because the mouthfeel is so triggering they’d rather starve.
Me making a week’s worth of bacon and eating it on my sandwiches every lunch last week: This was so not worth it. I really gotta reassess my food choices…
I’m curious about the gas chamber. I won’t deny that industrial meat production is cruel at best, the gas chamber makes little to no sense. It is far more expensive than the expediency of a bolt gun, and runs the risk of contamination (unless it’s nitrogen but the information I found in an admittedly cursory check says nitrogen suffocation is not used on animals.)
Wanna take a look? https://www.farmtransparency.org/videos/frbqvwrjoo
I haven’t watched that video, not sure how horrifying it is. That site has lots of videos of electrocution and captive bolt gun if you’d like to see how humane they are. Personally I would not euthanize myself using any of these techniques but maybe you would and thus maybe you will think they’re humane.
The answer as to why, is as all terrible things money. Throughput is high, CO2 stays where you put it and it’s cheap, nobody cares if pigs spend their last moments drowning and panicking.
Pigs have very thick skulls, they are powerful and rather noble creatures when not locked immobile in a pen and overfed (not much difference between domestic pigs and boars really, they grow large and hairy if you let them roam wild). Bolt guns and electrocution have an extremely high rate of failure on them.
Edit: everyone always asks for proof, never looks at it, and downvotes it.
Why ask, why be dishonest about whether you care?
I don’t know how people can do that, it’s so vile.
I believe it was Joey Carbstrong who lifted the lid on this particular thing, but there was some footage of the gas chambers having trotters in them. why? Because pigs will thrash so hard they literally rip their feet off while they’re being gassed. Humane? Nah.
I don’t want to be vegan. It has nothing to do with messaging, I just like eating meat. I don’t support the way we abuse animals for food either, but I’m not willing to go vegan over it. Nobody’s perfect. At least I know what I am and can accept that.
I would never support abusing animals.
Absolutely supports abusing animals.
If you knew what you were doing was immoral, and you kept doing it anyway for pleasure….
There is no moral way to use the bodies of animals for our personal consumption.
We can say nobody is perfect, so I’m going to murder some of the time, because I enjoy it.
It’s not nearly as impossible as you think to go vegan.
I totally get it! I’m a serial murderer and like, I don’t want people to be hurt or dead but I just like murdering so much. At least I know what I am and can accept that 🥰
I respect your lifestyle, but maybe you can do murder free Mondays? You can stab a hay stack on those days?
You know I was raised in a house where we murdered people daily. It was just normal to me. I had to stir the blood once I was able to stand and hold a spoon.
In your case it’s OK. It would be tremendously inappropriate to ask you to let go of your ancestral traditions.
Well you could still eat plant based meats from the likes of impossible and beyond. You might say that it’s not the same, but is that difference really worth supporting animal abuse? (and yes, you are supporting it by buying meat). It’s not even the difference between a burger and no burger, it’s between a burger and another burger that maybe tastes slightly different. I’ve never been able to understand that. Am I missing something?
it’s between a burger and another burger that maybe tastes slightly different.
Granted it’s been a decade since i had an animal flesh burger, but those plant based burgers taste better than the animal flesh burgers. Just my 2c
I went vegan around the time Beyond and Impossible burgers took off and after just about six months I’d ordered a Beyond burger but was given a regular one, and it was already pretty fucking gross to be eating dead animals even early on at that point.
Absolutely. All i can think of when i go to the plant based section (which is inevitably in the animal flesh section… for some reason…) is all the dead animals. They had lives. They wanted to live. They probably had friends and families. Ugh. Why can’t we be a plant based world already :(
Because I guess it just tastes so fucking incredible that none of that matters at all. /s
Once the novelty of beyond burgers worse off, I couldn’t really stand the taste. They are nauseatingly sweet, and have a very distinct flavour. Same with their sausages, stakes, they all taste the same.
I’ve since found better more neutral local brands that I like much more.
The gateway drug to even more sustainable local vegan food
I absolutely love the taste of meat. But I saw how animals are treated in the industry. So I don’t eat it because I don’t want to fund it. Would I eat it if I was guaranteed that the animal was happy all their life and didn’t notice being killed? Maybe. Probably. But that isn’t possible so I don’t. There are so many good meat alternatives by now that it really isn’t that hard anymore. For me it started with trying those and realizing they’re not bad at all. I would really encourage you to try a few of the available options. Beyond is really good. And when you know that no animal had to suffer and die for your short moment of enjoying a meal, it tastes even better.
…you do support the way we abuse animals for food though, you fund it. Like, intentionally.
Yeah I feel the same way owning a diamond mine. I know I could improve conditions and to be honest they’re pretty horrifying but I just really enjoy being able to buy whatever I want.
Nobody’s perfect, at least I know what I am and can accept that.
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You’re not vegan. Is that purity testing?
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The famous achieving of utopia by doing nothing and crying on twitter strat
So much this.
It makes me wonder whether many “leftists” are just lib poseurs, who are only leftists when it comes to their immediate frustrations in the present. Like the type who “grow up,” earn a decent amount of money and abandon their values under the spell of a bigger paycheck. Or when the economy goes through a normal cyclical upswing, all of the sudden, capitalism is not so bad. Similar to 80s “yuppie” liberals. Then, they talk down to all the “lazy, unsuccessful people.”
Like, if you’re really down with the cause - what you out on your plate is a high modifiable behavior that is well within the realms of cost and feasibility for everyone. If you can say, “Hey, I’m cool with paying half my income in taxes to ensure a better society for all,” why can’t you make another simple anti-exploitation concession?
The excuses are wild. “Veganism isn’t possible for most under capitalism, it’s too expensive, it only becomes feasible under socialism.” WTF, you realize in a socialist world, if ridiculous demand for animal products is still a thing, then the means of production will still find a way to meet that demand?
“we need to radically transform society”
“I agree, tried eating different?”
“omg too hard”
Not trying to pick a fight, trying to understand…
Can you explain how going vegan (I assume what you’re referencing when you say “eat different”) would stop, slow, or in any appreciable way alter the rise of fascism? Or genocides? Or police brutality?
The two seem, while granted one is exponentially better for the planet as a whole, completely disconnected from one another?
Or are you merely saying that the act of switching eating habits is good practice for the hardship and sacrifice required to change the other, aforementioned issues?
The wholesale imprisonment, torture, rape and murder of living beings IS fascism, on the scale of trillions of exploited animals per year. How we treat non-human creatures reflects how we treat each other. We’re committing genocide towards all living beings.
The entire moral foundation of leftism is is that we ought to arrange the world such that suffering is not inflicted on others for the gain of the few.
If you are unconcerned with the horror of carnism you are only concerned with the rights of those you deem sufficiently similar to you based on arbitrarily selected metrics, the reciting of which has a curious tendency to make someone sound like a Nazi: intelligence (as defined by an ability to peform certain specific tasks rather arbitrarily selected), or appearance, or genetics.
Either we are concerned with suffering or we are not. The practice of continually and regularly brutalising other creatures we know feel and suffer as much as we can know any other human does harms us, slaughterhouse workers suffer PTSD and display rates of violence above the normal. There are reasons that Nazis copied factory farming. It trains us in the process of dehumanisation (even that term is loaded), it harms the people involved, it harms the animals, and it gets you practicing that it is simply ok not to care or change anything if the treats you get by doing so are sufficiently enjoyable.
Thank you for your response, if it’s okay with you and you have time, I would love to ask a few more questions. Again, I promise I’m not trying to pick a fight or poke holes, I’m genuinely trying to reconcile things inside my head:
Has all of human history been fascist since humans have always consumed other beings?
The horrors of factory farming are indefensible, no argument. What about the farm who only raises enough for his family? Take that one far as you want, a single cow…flock of chickens, you get the idea. I’m more interested in the spirit than the semantics.
This one kind of spins off of question one, but I’d like to delve into this one…what about the Native Americans, who harvested, utilized the entire animal, had reverence for its spirit, its sacrifice?
Thank you for your response, it has been enlightening thus far.
literally all arguments for veganism have already been hashed out. Go look them up, it’s a waste of my time to present worse versions off the top of my head.
Understood, have a nice day.
You’re not gonna look them up lmao
You’re framing your expectations of veganism in a way where you will always fail to see its significance. The answer to your question is trivial.
“Veganism as a movement detracts from the rise of fascism, the normalisation of genocides and the prevalence of police brutality by challenging people to be more empathetic, live more sustainably and make individual choices towards a larger goal.”
You will never consider this an acceptable answer however and regardless of how you frame your reason for it being unacceptable, the truth is, for you it has to be unacceptable because you have a cultural connection to eating meat and an emotional reaction to the idea of changing that behavior. And in that sense your thinking is parallel to that of the fascist, the genocider and of the exploitative police officer.
And if none of that makes it to you; vegans as are group are overwhelmingly left wing people. Why would that be the case if the movement itself wasn’t inherently a left wing movement?
Is the “you” in this a general you, or are you speaking directly to me? The answer this question will change how I interpret and respond.
Why would it change how you respond. The core of my reply is devoid of the word.
Those people need to town down their redderick a little more than even vegans. What’s with Lemmy and the tolerating all that foaming at the mouth raging lunatics hateing everybody and everything and wanting only the extreme solutions where everybody needs to be killed for any slight deviation in world view? Oo
I would never.
I have standards for where I put my fun bits.
vegans are like Mormons. they shame you into believing they are morally superior and shit on any good will from anyone not like them.
The difference is we are morally superior
🤣
anyone who has to say they are superior, is neither moral or superior.
you know who also says they are superior?
nazis. white nationalists. christian fascists.
should we put vegans on that same list?
Yes, people who don’t want animals to suffer are literally nazis. I think you cracked it.
I’m not the one defending statements that say I’m morally superior. I’m morally challenged, because I’m human and human existence is complex and nuanced.
I know from experience and history, the only people who outwardly promote they are morally superior are neither and usually stems from an inferiority complex.
the most famous group of people who were both compensating for their inferiority complex and boasting their superiority was the Nazi.
can you give a better example of who “superior vegans” would be better compared to?
I consider myself morally superior to Jeffery Dahmer because I’m not a serial killer, apparently that means I’m a Nazi 🤔
nazis. white nationalists. christian fascists.
Notably, those groups on average all agree with you about eating animals. Isn’t that interesting? 🤔
wow! population saturation! such a big brain move!
you realize that only 3% of the US population is vegan, right? that means around 90% of the population eats meat. 9% of the US is estimated to be neo-nazi, so of course they eat meat.
what’s the point you were trying to make? neo-nazis eat meat, so all meat eaters are neo-nazis? that’s such a lazy no effort comment, get over yourself.
I just think it’s funny that you’re comparing vegans to nazis, white nationalists, and christian fascists even though those groups hate vegans and would probably be happy if all vegans were ground up into dog food feet-first.
I guess you don’t see the irony.
I just think it’s funny that you’re comparing vegans to nazis, white nationalists, and christian fascists even though those groups hate vegans and would probably be happy if all vegans were ground up into dog food feet-first.
But I’m not comparing them.
I said vegans believe they are morally superior and then someone said “because we are morally superior”.
then I said that anybody that has to express they are morally superior is neither moral or superior and provided examples of the types of people who claim to be superior, morally or otherwise.
I guess you don’t see the irony.
do you?
Wait, the rich aren’t on the vegan approved diet
We’ll let the utilitarian vegans eat them.
the rich are for feeding to the plants
COMPOST THE RICH
The “eating” is actually metaphorical. Just look at Elon Musk and think “I want him in my mouth”
Yeah, just fucking shoot him in the back of the skull and dispose the body responsibly in a mass grave with others like him
