I do have to question the core concept though, consider this just me trying to make sense of the logic. I’ll admit I’ve only understood the 2 ends of the camp, I was raised a fundamentalist, and really didn’t have much of a mid point from that to atheism.
To me the idea there is like saying “I’m a big fan of Darth Vader”, but I’m not a fundamentalist, I know star wars isn’t literally true, I don’t consider him to have blown up planets or built death stars.
IE then comes the question. There’s only star wars materials to even imply a vader ever existed, and if you don’t believe in that… in what meaningful way does vader exist? Or more importantly how do you know ANYTHING about him. IE what does it mean to “believe in darth vader”, but I don’t think he did most if any of the things in star wars.
I could see “I believe in a god, but don’t think there is any way to know anything about him, I just feel like the world was made”, that I can understand. But the second you slap the label of an existing religion, how do you not inherit the baggage as well. Because well what else is there, why would I assume the bible has more godly information than the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. If I’m not ascribing something in it to be believed to be true. Whether you go with the moral parable or literal truth, say a story where god tells his people to go into a city and kill all the men women and children, and they refuse and god punishes them until they do… whether it’s true or not, the moral of that story is “do what god says, even if your personal morals tell you it’s horrible”. The message is what’s awful today.
I’ll use an actual biblical example. Moses didn’t exist, and the Exodus was not a historical event. I think the people who wrote these texts knew that to some extent. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be so many inconsistencies. They weren’t stupid; they knew what a contradiction was.
But I don’t care. How would the fate of a people 3000 years ago change my life today? It wouldn’t. But the story is a lesson, a lesson that can change my life today. I believe that people were inspired by God to convey a message. They did so in their own language and cultural framework, using the rhetorical tools available to them: myth. That message can be summed up in a few words: God wants God’s people to be free, and God walks with us when we try to free ourselves. I’m not a slave in Egypt, but I’m not always free. I can be a slave to my anger, my passions, or a habit, and God helps me in my struggle for freedom. When I read the story of the Exodus, I look for what it can teach me about freedom today.
How do I know the Bible is truer than, say, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, or the IKEA catalogue? The truth is, I don’t. I do think, not just believe, but philosophically think that something beyond the world, which we might call “God” as an approximation, exists. Or, to be more precise, I think its existence is more probable than its nonexistence. I don’t know that it exists; it just makes more sense to me.
As for the rest, yes, those are beliefs, not certainties. I can live with that. Uncertainty is part of life! If we acted only when we knew something for sure, we’d do nothing. A lot of people like to lie to themselves, pretending that we can know whether God exists, that our political ideology is the best one, or what is right and wrong. Sometimes we can know these things. For example, I know that my political ideology is better than fascism; I have no uncertainty about that. But in most cases, we can’t be certain. I could stop at “a God probably exists” while continuing my life as if not, but I choose to thrive in uncertainty rather than fight it, and that leaves me freer to explore and open myself to other traditions and schools of thought.
I said that most Christians (by far) believe people can be saved without believing, while a minority believe that salvation is impossible without the correct belief. I believe something else. I belong to another minority, probably the smallest one: I believe there is more than one legitimate spiritual path. The Catholic Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church; it’s just that some people are members of the Church without knowing it. I believe the Church is one path among others, and simply the one that fits me today. The Bible helps me, the liberal Christian tradition nourishes me, and the community shelters me.
God is unknowable by definition. We’re talking about a being that exists outside time and space, so our words can’t legitimately claim to describe it. When we describe things, words that seem to contradict one another may both be true. It’s like two people describing the same mountain: someone on its northern face might describe it as a different mountain from the one described by someone on its southern face, even though they’re both describing the same mountain.
If I’m wrong, if there is no God, or if I’m irredeemably ignorant of the One True Religion™, it’s not a big deal. My faith has helped me live a better, fuller, and freer life. Who cares if an effective medicine turns out to be a placebo? And if I’m wrong and only people who believe a precise set of doctrines are saved, then I don’t want to be saved by such an assholish God. So everything works out for the best. (Though that idea makes no sense to me.)
I do have to question the core concept though, consider this just me trying to make sense of the logic. I’ll admit I’ve only understood the 2 ends of the camp, I was raised a fundamentalist, and really didn’t have much of a mid point from that to atheism.
To me the idea there is like saying “I’m a big fan of Darth Vader”, but I’m not a fundamentalist, I know star wars isn’t literally true, I don’t consider him to have blown up planets or built death stars.
IE then comes the question. There’s only star wars materials to even imply a vader ever existed, and if you don’t believe in that… in what meaningful way does vader exist? Or more importantly how do you know ANYTHING about him. IE what does it mean to “believe in darth vader”, but I don’t think he did most if any of the things in star wars.
I could see “I believe in a god, but don’t think there is any way to know anything about him, I just feel like the world was made”, that I can understand. But the second you slap the label of an existing religion, how do you not inherit the baggage as well. Because well what else is there, why would I assume the bible has more godly information than the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. If I’m not ascribing something in it to be believed to be true. Whether you go with the moral parable or literal truth, say a story where god tells his people to go into a city and kill all the men women and children, and they refuse and god punishes them until they do… whether it’s true or not, the moral of that story is “do what god says, even if your personal morals tell you it’s horrible”. The message is what’s awful today.
I’ll use an actual biblical example. Moses didn’t exist, and the Exodus was not a historical event. I think the people who wrote these texts knew that to some extent. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be so many inconsistencies. They weren’t stupid; they knew what a contradiction was.
But I don’t care. How would the fate of a people 3000 years ago change my life today? It wouldn’t. But the story is a lesson, a lesson that can change my life today. I believe that people were inspired by God to convey a message. They did so in their own language and cultural framework, using the rhetorical tools available to them: myth. That message can be summed up in a few words: God wants God’s people to be free, and God walks with us when we try to free ourselves. I’m not a slave in Egypt, but I’m not always free. I can be a slave to my anger, my passions, or a habit, and God helps me in my struggle for freedom. When I read the story of the Exodus, I look for what it can teach me about freedom today.
How do I know the Bible is truer than, say, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, or the IKEA catalogue? The truth is, I don’t. I do think, not just believe, but philosophically think that something beyond the world, which we might call “God” as an approximation, exists. Or, to be more precise, I think its existence is more probable than its nonexistence. I don’t know that it exists; it just makes more sense to me.
As for the rest, yes, those are beliefs, not certainties. I can live with that. Uncertainty is part of life! If we acted only when we knew something for sure, we’d do nothing. A lot of people like to lie to themselves, pretending that we can know whether God exists, that our political ideology is the best one, or what is right and wrong. Sometimes we can know these things. For example, I know that my political ideology is better than fascism; I have no uncertainty about that. But in most cases, we can’t be certain. I could stop at “a God probably exists” while continuing my life as if not, but I choose to thrive in uncertainty rather than fight it, and that leaves me freer to explore and open myself to other traditions and schools of thought.
I said that most Christians (by far) believe people can be saved without believing, while a minority believe that salvation is impossible without the correct belief. I believe something else. I belong to another minority, probably the smallest one: I believe there is more than one legitimate spiritual path. The Catholic Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church; it’s just that some people are members of the Church without knowing it. I believe the Church is one path among others, and simply the one that fits me today. The Bible helps me, the liberal Christian tradition nourishes me, and the community shelters me.
God is unknowable by definition. We’re talking about a being that exists outside time and space, so our words can’t legitimately claim to describe it. When we describe things, words that seem to contradict one another may both be true. It’s like two people describing the same mountain: someone on its northern face might describe it as a different mountain from the one described by someone on its southern face, even though they’re both describing the same mountain.
If I’m wrong, if there is no God, or if I’m irredeemably ignorant of the One True Religion™, it’s not a big deal. My faith has helped me live a better, fuller, and freer life. Who cares if an effective medicine turns out to be a placebo? And if I’m wrong and only people who believe a precise set of doctrines are saved, then I don’t want to be saved by such an assholish God. So everything works out for the best. (Though that idea makes no sense to me.)