Its an explicitly worse alternative what are you on about. Its in a eyes country. Its literally an explicit step down on every level.
The moment tuta goes to shit there is nothing stepping them from going all the way. At least with proton the legal requirements of the country they are in means that no matter what stupid shit the dickhead at the top does. They are REQUIRED to adhere to a minimum standard.
Tuta has NO legal requirement to do that.
If you remotely care about privacy and enforcement of the standard of care around it. Tuta is like one of the stupidest places you can go.
Sorry, but you saying you’re tired after one switch is pretty funny. Many people here have gone through this several times for many different services etc. You have no idea what being tired actually means in this case.
Saying that others have it worse is putting the wrong person down especially when you dont know anything else about their life. We should be putting the companies and people that put us in the predicament in the first place down. They are the ones causing the problems. Not the commenter you responded to.
Basically any company that you give money to is going to be lead by arseholes. By definition. The only easy way is self hosting but that has its own difficulties. (And even then it’s still hosted by an arsehole)
Legitly the only way i would ever dare to even attempt self hosting email again is in 20 years when ai can do it entirely for me using the power of a single AA battery. No sane person self hosts email!
no, but many of us have done it in the past and I do have all the DNS stuff already setup – It might work if I did it now, but spam is a ever growing mountain
This genuinely looked like a mistake, where was it reported they didnt send it to German users? I only saw that it was a German QA team that noticed it.
Article linked elsewhere seems to indicate it didn’t go to German users because the German QA team found the issue before it was sent, but due to an internal communication breakdown the issue didn’t make it back to the international team before the emails had already been sent. GOG immediately apologized for the mistake and changed their internal processes to catch these types of mistakes sooner.
It very much reads like an honest mistake, and even then it only impacted a subset of GOG users because it’s entirely dependent on the font used to render the email subject. The actual Unicode character used was a curved S (a letter from the Greek character set), but certain fonts render it looking more like the infamous SS symbol.
Thanks for posting this. Fucking Lemmy man. That reads like a genuine mistake to me… not everything is a conspiracy lol. If you just read the thread here, you’d believe that GOG were some underground Nazi apologists or something.
Yeah, it’s taken me a similar time to migrate away from Gmail and I’m not keen to repeat the process. But if this is what Proton’s code quality control is going to be like going forward - employees forced to push improperly-tested code because of their unhinged CEO - I’m going to have to go through the whole process again. Sigh.
Now experience how emails aren’t going through, silently. Leaving you clueless on the delivery status. The only reason I still use Gmail, is that too often emails from my servers will be treated as spam
You don’t need your own server to have the benefit the person you’re replying to is pointing out. If you control the domain, you can just point your DNS at another provider. For example, you can move your catch all inbox in Tuta to a mailbox.org plan with a catch all with a simple DNS update. Then you don’t need to change your email addresses anywhere.
Yes. Sorry that I didn’t make clear, I am awarw of those kind of work arounds. However, strange that I have to point out the obvious, that yoir “solution” completely defeats the purpose of the endeavour. You might be stuck in believing, it’s about owning the name, but it’s about control and privacy policies on one’s own terms. Something, that should be as obvious as blinking neon-lights, considering context. The name of a domain is mere decoration, with little functionality (i.a. think memorability, ease of verbal transmission etc.).
Honestly if your using tuta tho its no different then proton. Both are crap for different reasons. One has crap privacy enforcement and the other is ran by a dick head.
Seriously it baffles me that anyone thinks a german company is remotely trust worthy for security. Its a fucking joke. Any country that has a deal with five eyes should just be assumed its compromised up front. If theres no out side enforcement of security then any promise of it from the inside is worthless.
E2E encryption doesn’t matter when you can’t trust the actual host in the first place.
I was using Tuta to mailbox as an example for this very reason: you can move your catch all inbox from Tuta tomailbox.org, since it also supports catch all. I’m trying to highlight the benefit that using a service with catch all functionality adds, which is flexibility and easy migration. It was not meant as a recommendation to use Tuta.
Do not run your own email server - highly recommend using your own domain though. Use a provider that lets you BYO your domain. Just make sure you get your MX records correct with your DNS provider, most email providers have documentation for this.
The hard thing about email is getting all your contacts to use your he address, it is not migrating your email history. So owing the domain is the most important thing you can do.
You do not have to own your email server, if you have the domain you can go wherever.
You do then have to defend your domain name, which means making sure it will not expire and is locked.
I started with cloud backup, it’s going reasonably. I’m using something called Jottacloud which so far has been solid for me and has a lot of different types of backups. Migrated some-odd 25000 photos, slowly getting through the rest of my stuff on google drive. Soon I’ll be below the 15g and switch to free it’ll be great then I can work on the rest of degoogling
It takes so much work and feels impossible the entire time especially while all the rest of life keeps happening. One step at a time I guess
I started with considerably more, down to the last 50g now, basically tying up loose ends and organizing all the “will organize later” as I move them to my new service
It’s very simple. Buy your domain for the next ten years for under $200. Then find an email provider where you can bring your own domain. Namecheap has always been good to me. Maybe also Hetzner in Germany?
Hetzner provides email with their cheapest webhosting package at €1.60 a month.
Namecheap is a little more pricey than I expected. You pay $89.28/2 years with a promo code - Renews for $143.76/2 years
Exact same situation with me. Going to start this weekend on self hosting email and then the transition process. I still have around 6 months left on my proton subscription, so enough time to move everything.
I mean I believe you, but thoughts on this comment:
reddit
Proton monitors employees’ AI code generation"
This is also a distortion. Proton has a tool that labels which code is AI-generated and which is human-written, which is important for many reasons. It can’t be used to evaluate how much AI somebody is using. The design document for the tool states this clearly. This document is available to all employees:
r/ProtonMail - I’m a Proton employee and I’m breaking my silence
The security point
The list goes on and on. Same with the security point. I have access to that chat. Andy never said don’t do pen testing. It’s true, he used shitty language and he personally apologized to the whole company. However in that same security chat he also said something 404 omitted: “The baseline is, we must do this plus be faster at the same time” in reference to security testing.
r/ProtonMail - I’m a Proton employee and I’m breaking my silence
He agreed with the additional pen testing, and it was even recently implemented at Proton. What he didn’t agree to was it slowing down the pipeline.
About hiring engineers
This quote “this is the last year that we hire engineers” is also out of context. At Proton, the engineering and product management roles are merging and we call this new discipline “Product Engineering”. Proton also mostly hires product managers with engineering backgrounds. It means we stop hiring engineers who just code, and hire instead product engineers who also exercise product judgment that AI doesn’t have, not that we don’t hire engineers at all. I know this because I help with hiring for the whole company.
One last thing
I want to put a few words out there that aren’t about quotes or screenshots, but about my experience.
To be honest to you, we’re all in a bit of a shock after reading the articles written, and some of the criticism hurts me because it described a company I don’t recognize. Reading the comments on Reddit hurts me because so many of them do not reflect reality. Proton is not rushing into AI without concern for safety, it is actually being done very carefully.
If you’re deciding whether to keep using Proton, I’d just ask that you make that decision after getting the full picture, and not solely on the quotes that have been intentionally taken out of context. Otherwise, you are only hurting the workers that you claim to want to protect.
For some reason your copy paste mangles the text, but the original seems to have some interesting context. I like 404, but it seems like they do as much click bait as anywhere else these days.
Internet journalism is about as yellow as classic journalism ever was. Its always been “click bait” always will be. lol
Gotta always take everything with a grain of salt and assume things are misrepresented either on accident or on purpose. Its a PITA but it is what it is.
I’d recommend an e-mail provider that supports custom domains, so you can easily switch at any time. I personally use Purelymail; I’ve also heard good things about Fastmail and Migadu.
I’ve never quite finished moving all my domains to Proton from google, but I think I’m leaning towards infomaniak.com for now, on the Business plan with my and my brothers family using the service
Tuta mail and calendar has been a real easy switch. I imported my emails from proton and just started a fresh calendar because I could and it was a good excuse to clean mine up.
The iOS apps work well and the experimental flatpak on desktop has been totally fine.
I have very little complaints so far tbh. I’m not like blown away or anything but everything just seems to work.
Looking at AirVPN, but not ready to pull the trigger on that yet.
Still looking for a calendar. Thunderbird has one but it’s not on mobile for some reason.
The big one is mail. I was the same as you migrating from gmail so I’m learning my lesson now. Set up Thundermail today and have 3 custom domains set up. Spent hours today swapping out account emails. It’s rough, but I did it to myself. I knew going full Proton ecosystem was a bad idea, but at the time I just wanted out of Google. Take your time.
Problem is that any vpn not in switzerland is basically an explict step down. Trusting a company that is in a country that has no enforcement means your trusting the company it self entirely to stay honest. At least with proton, no matter what the idiots at the top want. They still have to comply with their local laws.
That alone keeps proton above airVPN if your using a VPN for privacy reasons. It always will, no matter what. The entire country would have to change its laws for that to change.
Now if your just using a VPN for routing purposes or something that security is not a high piro. Then air VPN is fantastic.
I’ve been putting it off, because it took me more than a year to migrate away from Gmail. But this is hard to ignore. I’m tired, fam.
Tuta is a good alternative. I am in the process of migrating there right now.
Its an explicitly worse alternative what are you on about. Its in a eyes country. Its literally an explicit step down on every level.
The moment tuta goes to shit there is nothing stepping them from going all the way. At least with proton the legal requirements of the country they are in means that no matter what stupid shit the dickhead at the top does. They are REQUIRED to adhere to a minimum standard.
Tuta has NO legal requirement to do that.
If you remotely care about privacy and enforcement of the standard of care around it. Tuta is like one of the stupidest places you can go.
Sorry, but you saying you’re tired after one switch is pretty funny. Many people here have gone through this several times for many different services etc. You have no idea what being tired actually means in this case.
Saying that others have it worse is putting the wrong person down especially when you dont know anything else about their life. We should be putting the companies and people that put us in the predicament in the first place down. They are the ones causing the problems. Not the commenter you responded to.
I’ve not really shown my hand, either.
For example. I had a Slashdot account before I had a Digg account before I had a Reddit account before I had a Lemmy account.
Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written.
deleted by creator
Basically any company that you give money to is going to be lead by arseholes. By definition. The only easy way is self hosting but that has its own difficulties. (And even then it’s still hosted by an arsehole)
The biggest dickhead I know runs my server.
Could be worse, your servers could be ran by the same dipshit that runs mine! I swear nothing ever gets fixed on time!
I thought he ran my servers
shrugs
Yes go self host email, I’ll wait
Oh, I’ve done it… Won’t do it again, but I have done it.
Legitly the only way i would ever dare to even attempt self hosting email again is in 20 years when ai can do it entirely for me using the power of a single AA battery. No sane person self hosts email!
no, but many of us have done it in the past and I do have all the DNS stuff already setup – It might work if I did it now, but spam is a ever growing mountain
GOG is a good company we all pay for.
Give it a few generations for the selection pressure of the market / the temptations of new leadership to take over.
The GOG that knowingly sent out emails with Nazi symbols in?
On some devices on some fonts
Come on man
Didn’t get one.
Talking about GOG the DRM-free digital PC game store.
Yes they sent an email with the subject containing two runes resembling the SS logo.
“They didn’t notice”, but somehow they didn’t send it to German users
This genuinely looked like a mistake, where was it reported they didnt send it to German users? I only saw that it was a German QA team that noticed it.
Article linked elsewhere seems to indicate it didn’t go to German users because the German QA team found the issue before it was sent, but due to an internal communication breakdown the issue didn’t make it back to the international team before the emails had already been sent. GOG immediately apologized for the mistake and changed their internal processes to catch these types of mistakes sooner.
It very much reads like an honest mistake, and even then it only impacted a subset of GOG users because it’s entirely dependent on the font used to render the email subject. The actual Unicode character used was a curved S (a letter from the Greek character set), but certain fonts render it looking more like the infamous SS symbol.
I’m not German and I didn’t get the twisted cross email.
What?
https://www.heise.de/en/news/GOG-apologizes-for-newsletter-with-SS-runes-in-subject-11321683.html
Thanks for posting this. Fucking Lemmy man. That reads like a genuine mistake to me… not everything is a conspiracy lol. If you just read the thread here, you’d believe that GOG were some underground Nazi apologists or something.
As the saying goes, always check and double check your sources 😉
Yeah my thoughts exactly.
Holy shit do people need to get educated on Occam’s Razor.
Yes!
Not with the AI generated images they use
They no longer use it.
I open it right now and all I see is flashy text with game cover art in the offers/deals pages.
DRM-free is a big plus.
Yeah, it’s taken me a similar time to migrate away from Gmail and I’m not keen to repeat the process. But if this is what Proton’s code quality control is going to be like going forward - employees forced to push improperly-tested code because of their unhinged CEO - I’m going to have to go through the whole process again. Sigh.
Though, I learned my lesson and bought my own domain. So this pivot should be better.
Now experience how emails aren’t going through, silently. Leaving you clueless on the delivery status. The only reason I still use Gmail, is that too often emails from my servers will be treated as spam
You don’t need your own server to have the benefit the person you’re replying to is pointing out. If you control the domain, you can just point your DNS at another provider. For example, you can move your catch all inbox in Tuta to a mailbox.org plan with a catch all with a simple DNS update. Then you don’t need to change your email addresses anywhere.
Yes. Sorry that I didn’t make clear, I am awarw of those kind of work arounds. However, strange that I have to point out the obvious, that yoir “solution” completely defeats the purpose of the endeavour. You might be stuck in believing, it’s about owning the name, but it’s about control and privacy policies on one’s own terms. Something, that should be as obvious as blinking neon-lights, considering context. The name of a domain is mere decoration, with little functionality (i.a. think memorability, ease of verbal transmission etc.).
Honestly if your using tuta tho its no different then proton. Both are crap for different reasons. One has crap privacy enforcement and the other is ran by a dick head.
Seriously it baffles me that anyone thinks a german company is remotely trust worthy for security. Its a fucking joke. Any country that has a deal with five eyes should just be assumed its compromised up front. If theres no out side enforcement of security then any promise of it from the inside is worthless.
E2E encryption doesn’t matter when you can’t trust the actual host in the first place.
I was using Tuta to mailbox as an example for this very reason: you can move your catch all inbox from Tuta to mailbox.org, since it also supports catch all. I’m trying to highlight the benefit that using a service with catch all functionality adds, which is flexibility and easy migration. It was not meant as a recommendation to use Tuta.
I would love to chat this through with you. I have some domains but honestly, Iʻve been told so many times to not roll my own…
Do not run your own email server - highly recommend using your own domain though. Use a provider that lets you BYO your domain. Just make sure you get your MX records correct with your DNS provider, most email providers have documentation for this.
The hard thing about email is getting all your contacts to use your he address, it is not migrating your email history. So owing the domain is the most important thing you can do.
You do not have to own your email server, if you have the domain you can go wherever.
You do then have to defend your domain name, which means making sure it will not expire and is locked.
Likewise. I never plan to host my own email server. You can bring your own domain to Proton, at least.
ngl, I feel very burried by the effort to “de-google”. Like, Iʻm close, very close, and email is like the last thing to do (along with cloud backup).
I started with cloud backup, it’s going reasonably. I’m using something called Jottacloud which so far has been solid for me and has a lot of different types of backups. Migrated some-odd 25000 photos, slowly getting through the rest of my stuff on google drive. Soon I’ll be below the 15g and switch to free it’ll be great then I can work on the rest of degoogling
It takes so much work and feels impossible the entire time especially while all the rest of life keeps happening. One step at a time I guess
heh. cute.
I started with considerably more, down to the last 50g now, basically tying up loose ends and organizing all the “will organize later” as I move them to my new service
It’s very simple. Buy your domain for the next ten years for under $200. Then find an email provider where you can bring your own domain. Namecheap has always been good to me. Maybe also Hetzner in Germany?
Hetzner provides email with their cheapest webhosting package at €1.60 a month.
Namecheap is a little more pricey than I expected. You pay $89.28/2 years with a promo code - Renews for $143.76/2 years
Exact same situation with me. Going to start this weekend on self hosting email and then the transition process. I still have around 6 months left on my proton subscription, so enough time to move everything.
I mean I believe you, but thoughts on this comment: reddit
This is also a distortion. Proton has a tool that labels which code is AI-generated and which is human-written, which is important for many reasons. It can’t be used to evaluate how much AI somebody is using. The design document for the tool states this clearly. This document is available to all employees: r/ProtonMail - I’m a Proton employee and I’m breaking my silence The security point
The list goes on and on. Same with the security point. I have access to that chat. Andy never said don’t do pen testing. It’s true, he used shitty language and he personally apologized to the whole company. However in that same security chat he also said something 404 omitted: “The baseline is, we must do this plus be faster at the same time” in reference to security testing. r/ProtonMail - I’m a Proton employee and I’m breaking my silence
He agreed with the additional pen testing, and it was even recently implemented at Proton. What he didn’t agree to was it slowing down the pipeline. About hiring engineers
This quote “this is the last year that we hire engineers” is also out of context. At Proton, the engineering and product management roles are merging and we call this new discipline “Product Engineering”. Proton also mostly hires product managers with engineering backgrounds. It means we stop hiring engineers who just code, and hire instead product engineers who also exercise product judgment that AI doesn’t have, not that we don’t hire engineers at all. I know this because I help with hiring for the whole company. One last thing
I want to put a few words out there that aren’t about quotes or screenshots, but about my experience.
To be honest to you, we’re all in a bit of a shock after reading the articles written, and some of the criticism hurts me because it described a company I don’t recognize. Reading the comments on Reddit hurts me because so many of them do not reflect reality. Proton is not rushing into AI without concern for safety, it is actually being done very carefully.
If you’re deciding whether to keep using Proton, I’d just ask that you make that decision after getting the full picture, and not solely on the quotes that have been intentionally taken out of context. Otherwise, you are only hurting the workers that you claim to want to protect.
For some reason your copy paste mangles the text, but the original seems to have some interesting context. I like 404, but it seems like they do as much click bait as anywhere else these days.
Internet journalism is about as yellow as classic journalism ever was. Its always been “click bait” always will be. lol
Gotta always take everything with a grain of salt and assume things are misrepresented either on accident or on purpose. Its a PITA but it is what it is.
I’m waiting to see if I’ll start using it.
I canceled my renewal but I’be been putting off finding a replacement because what you said. It’s exhausting.
I use fastmail. Super happy so far.
Thanks for the recommendation! I’ll look it up!
Fuck it. Let’s make an easy open source email host and all the corpse can wall us out and we’ll just email each other. Wait this sounds familiar.
What do you mean? That idea is brand new!
If I’d only put off de-googling a bit longer before I saw the news I could have skipped this hop. Oh well…
I’m eyeballing Tuta. Anyone have other recommendations?
I’d recommend an e-mail provider that supports custom domains, so you can easily switch at any time. I personally use Purelymail; I’ve also heard good things about Fastmail and Migadu.
I’ve never quite finished moving all my domains to Proton from google, but I think I’m leaning towards infomaniak.com for now, on the Business plan with my and my brothers family using the service
Tuta mail and calendar has been a real easy switch. I imported my emails from proton and just started a fresh calendar because I could and it was a good excuse to clean mine up.
The iOS apps work well and the experimental flatpak on desktop has been totally fine.
I have very little complaints so far tbh. I’m not like blown away or anything but everything just seems to work.
I spent the day getting things set up to leave.
Pass went to KeePass, which was easier than I expected.
Drive is now replaced with Filen.io
Standard Notes is now Obsidian
Looking at AirVPN, but not ready to pull the trigger on that yet.
Still looking for a calendar. Thunderbird has one but it’s not on mobile for some reason.
The big one is mail. I was the same as you migrating from gmail so I’m learning my lesson now. Set up Thundermail today and have 3 custom domains set up. Spent hours today swapping out account emails. It’s rough, but I did it to myself. I knew going full Proton ecosystem was a bad idea, but at the time I just wanted out of Google. Take your time.
Problem is that any vpn not in switzerland is basically an explict step down. Trusting a company that is in a country that has no enforcement means your trusting the company it self entirely to stay honest. At least with proton, no matter what the idiots at the top want. They still have to comply with their local laws.
That alone keeps proton above airVPN if your using a VPN for privacy reasons. It always will, no matter what. The entire country would have to change its laws for that to change.
Now if your just using a VPN for routing purposes or something that security is not a high piro. Then air VPN is fantastic.
Baikal and any client that supports CalDAV, my friend.
Thanks, I’ll give it a look. Self hosting is a huge learning curve for me, I hate network stuff lol.