Credit scores are used to tell companies how much they can earn on lending you money.
Paying back quickly reduces the amount they can earn, lowering your credit score.
Not paying it back obviously lowers the score.
The way I understand it, to raise your credit score you need to slowly pay back your loans, so you pay back maximum interest.
Note however that I am just a cynical IT guy in Sweden with zero actual exposure to US/UK style credit scores, and that I may be talking out of my ass.
It’s absolutely a scam designed to extract even more wealth from the poors.
No joke, I’ve had a car dealership tell me they can’t sell me the car I want because my credit score was nonexistent (no credit history in 7 years). I was paying in full, in cash, literally in an envelope in my hand.
Grand total of 8k, all in 100s, super easy to count.
But no, I didn’t have a “good enough credit score” so I couldn’t buy that car from them, despite having the money to do so.
I think you just got a shitty dealership. “Legal tender for all debts public and private” means just that, they aren’t allowed legally to refuse dollars. My cousin also successfully did what you are describing.
Not necessarily a shitty dealership, just one with low margins.
Cars are generally sold by sellers with incredibly low margins (talking like a few hundred dollars, max). They make their money through the financing. They probably didn’t want to sell the car in cash, because some other chud will come along and buy it on credit and get them a higher margin.
Pro tip - always get your own financing when purchasing a car, don’t get it through the dealer. But don’t let them know that, look over their finance package when signing the paperwork, try to negotiate out any origination charges, etc. then simply pay the loan off immediately with your private financing.
They can easily refuse cash. It’s not a debit until you owe them money. If they decide not to sell you a car then there’s no debt. You aren’t obligated to see someone a car if the manner of the sale isn’t to your liking.
Why on earth do you think that’s the case? They’re selling something, they’re not in one of the limited industries where you have limited rights to refuse, and method of payment isn’t one of the reasons you can’t refuse to do business with someone. A handful of places prohibit not accepting cash, but it’s not enough that I would assume that’s where they were, particularly if a business opted to just casually refuse.
That’s not really relevant here yet. GP doesnt have a “debt” before the transaction takes place. Nothing about that statement forces a business to do business with you. They are perfectly within their rights to only agree to do business with you if you pay in chickens.
Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.
A few states have introduced bills to require taking cash (Idaho, Mississippi and North Dakota), but as far as I’m aware none have ever actually passed into law.
In the US, it is legal tender to pay off all debts. But merchants can refuse to give you debt if you are paying cash. Thus have no obligation to accept it.
Just imagine paying for a car with something like an SJ credit card and get the motherload of priopoäng!
(For the non-Swedes, SJ is a train company with a version of a frequent flyer miles point system, and they like most of those have a credit card where every SEK spent earns you 1 point. A trip from Malmö to Stockholm (600km, ~4,5h) can be bought for some 12-16000 points. A new car costs anywhere from 300000 sek up to a million and beyond.)
No joke, I’ve had a car dealership tell me they can’t sell me the car I want because my credit score was nonexistent (no credit history in 7 years). I was paying in full, in cash, literally in an envelope in my hand.
There are car dealers (especially at the low end of used cars) that don’t make money selling cars. They make money with horrible debt and payment terms trying to trap vulnerable people. The worst of these dealers may end up “selling” the car 2 or 3 times repoing it each time when the buyer can’t pay.
So its first possible that this dealer didn’t want to sell you a car for cash because its against their business model.
Grand total of 8k, all in 100s, super easy to count.
$8k in cash is super sketchy for a single purchase. Its untraceable and that sets off fraud alarm bells. The dealership also may not be set up to deal in large sums of cash like that lacking the security to do so. Lastly there are laws at the state and federal level called KYC (Know your Customer) for some transactions that require the seller to verify the money is legit. With cash, thats nearly impossible.
You might have had more luck showing up with an $8k cashiers check or offering an $8k wire transfer from your bank. Both of these are exempt from lots of regulations (because there’s a paper trail) where cash would not have that luxury.
But no, I didn’t have a “good enough credit score” so I couldn’t buy that car from them, despite having the money to do so.
Mental gymnastics on that one.
I’m guessing that was just an excuse to not sell to you because either they’re the sketchy dealer (that likes to sell loans not cars) or they thought you were super sketchy as a buyer.
No joke, I’ve had a car dealership tell me they can’t sell me the car I want because my credit score was nonexistent (no credit history in 7 years). I was paying in full, in cash, literally in an envelope in my hand.
The dealership wanted you to finance so that you’ll pay them interest, because they make more money that way. If they completely refused, what’s most likely is that the car was being sold at a price that gives them zero/negative profit margin, so without financing, they’d literally take a loss selling it for straight cash.
There must be something else to it. I’ve never paid any interest on my credit cards and I paid off my mortgage early; by your logic I should have a low credit score, but it’s actually in the “Excellent” range.
Yeah paying back early doesn’t affect it as far as I can tell. Lenders just want to know if you’ll leave them in the lurch or not. If you pay back early that just means they can reinvest the cash sooner.
In another comment, someone mentioned that it’s not just repayment of interest that profits credit card companies.
Even if you pay all debts monthly before interest can compound, the CC companies still charge processing fees to merchants on a per-transaction basis (which merchants either pass directly to consumers or indirectly through higher prices). They still get their cut, even if you don’t see it on a line item.
Recently I had house work done. The contractor offered to charge me 5% less if I paid with cash or check instead of credit card.
You have great interest paying potential because of your reliable handling of finances, so your score is high to make it easy for you to take on a lot of debt down the road.
Credit scores are used to tell companies how much they can earn on lending you money.
This is demonstrably bullshit.
Someone who maxes out a credit card, and then only pays minimum payments, and always makes them late, is, via interest accruing and late payment fees, making the lender basically the maximum amount of profit possible. And yet doing this will result in a garbage credit score, because using every penny of your credit limit is very detrimental to your credit score, and not making payments on time is extremely detrimental to your credit score.
Meanwhile, take me, someone who never pays a cent of interest, because he pays off his card every statement cycle (and on time, naturally), and because of card rewards, I’m the one profiting, the lender is literally the one paying me, and ‘yet’, my credit score is in the 800s.
So how do you reconcile that with the assertion quoted above? It’s very hard to understand how anyone can arrive at the conclusion you did, while also knowing, at least (as I assume you do), that late payments simultaneously hurt your credit score and increase profit for the lender, just as one example.
Paying back quickly reduces the amount they can earn, lowering your credit score.
Straight-up lie false.
The way I understand it, to raise your credit score you need to slowly pay back your loans, so you pay back maximum interest.
There’s also an element of whether or not the lendee can reliably make payments. Always having late fees doesn’t show that you’re able to reliably make companies money. And when you’re making payments on time without fees, they still get money from the fees they charge the business. So using and paying back is still good for them. It’s still all about the money, because it always is in the US.
Paying back quickly reduces the amount they can earn, lowering your credit score.
Straight-up lie.
No, it doesn’t fit the definition of a lie, I didn’t know any better, so it was ignorance, not a lie, it would be nice if you could edit and correct this line.
The way I understand it, to raise your credit score you need to slowly pay back your loans, so you pay back maximum interest.
You don’t understand it.
I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
Overall you do seem to know the subject better than me, so I will mostly defere to your judgement (apart from the thing about me lying).
Paying back a loan quickly will not lower your credit score. If you have a line of credit that closes as soon as you pay off a loan (eg a car loan) your score can go down if it changes your utilization rate (how much you could take out in loans vs. how much you have taken out) but paying off a loan early won’t impact your score.
You can look up what things are factored into a consumer credit score. You can see for yourself that early payments are not part of the formula.
I always pay my loans back on time and every now and then the bank rise my credit limit. I think it’s because I also have a bank account with them and they can see I have the money ready to go. I don’t make much money for them, but I do make a consistent amount and the banks like that too.
You are entirely incorrect. The credit card company makes most of their money from the fees paid by the merchant. They make money when you, the customer, spend money because the merchant gives a chunk of it to them, usually with an additional flat fee. (Different merchants and card processors have different payment structures. A grocery store is more likely to pay a much higher fixed daily fee to avoid unpredictable transaction fees on small purchases)
They don’t lower your score if you pay back early. People get confused because they see their score drop after going from $10k credit card limit with $800 in monthly usage paid on time every time and a $500 balance on a $25k car loan that’s been paid on time every month to just the credit card. The reason it went down is that the number of regular timely payments went down, which means fewer trust signals, and credit utilization went up. (3% to 8%). It doesn’t however snap down as though you hadn’t just made a bunch of good payments, it just doesn’t boost when you’re done.
The credit card company makes the most money when you make a huge number of modest purchases and then immediately pay them back. When you have credit card debt their money is sitting in the merchants account. They want to minimize the time they don’t have their money so they charge you based on the risk that you never pay them back, after a grace period. (You have usually a month before any interest acrues).
It’s why as you get better credit scores the credit card company starts offering you increasing incentives to buy things. Bonus cash back on purchases at places that tend to be frequent, smaller purchases without bulk processing rates and so one. They’ll refund you on purchases in a dispute with the merchant and then figure out the merchant dispute independently (usually by just dropping it because they don’t care about $124.99 in potentially substandard curtains or whatever they just want the customer to keep buying curtains and the merchant to keep thinking it’s a net positive). You’re a walking $0.25 + 3.0% per purchase. Making you regret spending money is the last thing they want.
Hmm, I don’t think so. I’m in my 60s and I’ve always paid my credit cards in full each month when they’re due. Until very recently, I did have a mortgage and paid the regular payment (with occasional extra payments for principle), do they did make money off of me there. My credit rating has pretty much always been at or near the highest it can be.
Credit scores are used to tell companies how much they can earn on lending you money.
Paying back quickly reduces the amount they can earn, lowering your credit score.
Not paying it back obviously lowers the score.
The way I understand it, to raise your credit score you need to slowly pay back your loans, so you pay back maximum interest.
Note however that I am just a cynical IT guy in Sweden with zero actual exposure to US/UK style credit scores, and that I may be talking out of my ass.
100% spot on.
It’s absolutely a scam designed to extract even more wealth from the poors.
No joke, I’ve had a car dealership tell me they can’t sell me the car I want because my credit score was nonexistent (no credit history in 7 years). I was paying in full, in cash, literally in an envelope in my hand.
Grand total of 8k, all in 100s, super easy to count.
But no, I didn’t have a “good enough credit score” so I couldn’t buy that car from them, despite having the money to do so.
Mental gymnastics on that one.
I think you just got a shitty dealership. “Legal tender for all debts public and private” means just that, they aren’t allowed legally to refuse dollars. My cousin also successfully did what you are describing.
Not necessarily a shitty dealership, just one with low margins.
Cars are generally sold by sellers with incredibly low margins (talking like a few hundred dollars, max). They make their money through the financing. They probably didn’t want to sell the car in cash, because some other chud will come along and buy it on credit and get them a higher margin.
Pro tip - always get your own financing when purchasing a car, don’t get it through the dealer. But don’t let them know that, look over their finance package when signing the paperwork, try to negotiate out any origination charges, etc. then simply pay the loan off immediately with your private financing.
They can easily refuse cash. It’s not a debit until you owe them money. If they decide not to sell you a car then there’s no debt. You aren’t obligated to see someone a car if the manner of the sale isn’t to your liking.
You are correct. What they can’t do though is only allow you to buy the car with one method of payment, which is what is being described here.
Why on earth do you think that’s the case? They’re selling something, they’re not in one of the limited industries where you have limited rights to refuse, and method of payment isn’t one of the reasons you can’t refuse to do business with someone. A handful of places prohibit not accepting cash, but it’s not enough that I would assume that’s where they were, particularly if a business opted to just casually refuse.
That’s not really relevant here yet. GP doesnt have a “debt” before the transaction takes place. Nothing about that statement forces a business to do business with you. They are perfectly within their rights to only agree to do business with you if you pay in chickens.
That isn’t how holding a business license works.
Sure everybody has the right to refuse service, but they can’t offer service only through one means of pay.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
A few states have introduced bills to require taking cash (Idaho, Mississippi and North Dakota), but as far as I’m aware none have ever actually passed into law.
I think you would be surprised how many states already have laws like that on the books. Mine does.
Here in Sweden, that would also have been rejected, most stores won’t accept cash at all.
I had to pay for my car using a wire transfer a few days before I picked it up.
I do think that it would have been funny to just use tap to pay, but apparently that would have increased the cost by a lot.
That’s insane to me.
I have money to buy something, and I’m being refused the sale despite this money being legal tender.
I get what you mean, and agree to some extent, but the reality is that handling cash is expensive and dangerous.
Back in the early 2000s, there was a large wave of high profile armours car robberies in Sweden.
Some even completely blew up the armoured car.
This lead to a debate and a deliberate effort to reduce the ammount of cash used in Sweden.
I remember reading something about 97% of all transactions inside Sweden are now done electronically.
This has lead to banks having offices that don’t handle cash, and that banks are looking at cash deposits with suspicion, since you can’t trace cash.
This, as usual, only really affects normal poeple, and criminals have ways around it.
In the US, it is legal tender to pay off all debts. But merchants can refuse to give you debt if you are paying cash. Thus have no obligation to accept it.
Just imagine paying for a car with something like an SJ credit card and get the motherload of priopoäng!
(For the non-Swedes, SJ is a train company with a version of a frequent flyer miles point system, and they like most of those have a credit card where every SEK spent earns you 1 point. A trip from Malmö to Stockholm (600km, ~4,5h) can be bought for some 12-16000 points. A new car costs anywhere from 300000 sek up to a million and beyond.)
I think there has been some EU-wide regulation that you can’t pay more than 10k€ in cash or sth, it’s to prevent money laundering.
There are car dealers (especially at the low end of used cars) that don’t make money selling cars. They make money with horrible debt and payment terms trying to trap vulnerable people. The worst of these dealers may end up “selling” the car 2 or 3 times repoing it each time when the buyer can’t pay.
So its first possible that this dealer didn’t want to sell you a car for cash because its against their business model.
$8k in cash is super sketchy for a single purchase. Its untraceable and that sets off fraud alarm bells. The dealership also may not be set up to deal in large sums of cash like that lacking the security to do so. Lastly there are laws at the state and federal level called KYC (Know your Customer) for some transactions that require the seller to verify the money is legit. With cash, thats nearly impossible.
You might have had more luck showing up with an $8k cashiers check or offering an $8k wire transfer from your bank. Both of these are exempt from lots of regulations (because there’s a paper trail) where cash would not have that luxury.
I’m guessing that was just an excuse to not sell to you because either they’re the sketchy dealer (that likes to sell loans not cars) or they thought you were super sketchy as a buyer.
The dealership wanted you to finance so that you’ll pay them interest, because they make more money that way. If they completely refused, what’s most likely is that the car was being sold at a price that gives them zero/negative profit margin, so without financing, they’d literally take a loss selling it for straight cash.
There must be something else to it. I’ve never paid any interest on my credit cards and I paid off my mortgage early; by your logic I should have a low credit score, but it’s actually in the “Excellent” range.
Massive understatement—it’d be more accurate to say they’re completely wrong, lol.
Yeah paying back early doesn’t affect it as far as I can tell. Lenders just want to know if you’ll leave them in the lurch or not. If you pay back early that just means they can reinvest the cash sooner.
In another comment, someone mentioned that it’s not just repayment of interest that profits credit card companies.
Even if you pay all debts monthly before interest can compound, the CC companies still charge processing fees to merchants on a per-transaction basis (which merchants either pass directly to consumers or indirectly through higher prices). They still get their cut, even if you don’t see it on a line item.
Recently I had house work done. The contractor offered to charge me 5% less if I paid with cash or check instead of credit card.
You have great interest paying potential because of your reliable handling of finances, so your score is high to make it easy for you to take on a lot of debt down the road.
Well the back need some safe bets as a baseline.
Your ass is speaking truth
This is demonstrably bullshit.
Someone who maxes out a credit card, and then only pays minimum payments, and always makes them late, is, via interest accruing and late payment fees, making the lender basically the maximum amount of profit possible. And yet doing this will result in a garbage credit score, because using every penny of your credit limit is very detrimental to your credit score, and not making payments on time is extremely detrimental to your credit score.
Meanwhile, take me, someone who never pays a cent of interest, because he pays off his card every statement cycle (and on time, naturally), and because of card rewards, I’m the one profiting, the lender is literally the one paying me, and ‘yet’, my credit score is in the 800s.
So how do you reconcile that with the assertion quoted above? It’s very hard to understand how anyone can arrive at the conclusion you did, while also knowing, at least (as I assume you do), that late payments simultaneously hurt your credit score and increase profit for the lender, just as one example.
Straight-up
liefalse.You don’t understand it.
There’s also an element of whether or not the lendee can reliably make payments. Always having late fees doesn’t show that you’re able to reliably make companies money. And when you’re making payments on time without fees, they still get money from the fees they charge the business. So using and paying back is still good for them. It’s still all about the money, because it always is in the US.
No, it doesn’t fit the definition of a lie, I didn’t know any better, so it was ignorance, not a lie, it would be nice if you could edit and correct this line.
I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
Overall you do seem to know the subject better than me, so I will mostly defere to your judgement (apart from the thing about me lying).
EDIT: Thanks for the edit! (:
Paying back a loan quickly will not lower your credit score. If you have a line of credit that closes as soon as you pay off a loan (eg a car loan) your score can go down if it changes your utilization rate (how much you could take out in loans vs. how much you have taken out) but paying off a loan early won’t impact your score.
You can look up what things are factored into a consumer credit score. You can see for yourself that early payments are not part of the formula.
I always pay my loans back on time and every now and then the bank rise my credit limit. I think it’s because I also have a bank account with them and they can see I have the money ready to go. I don’t make much money for them, but I do make a consistent amount and the banks like that too.
You are entirely incorrect. The credit card company makes most of their money from the fees paid by the merchant. They make money when you, the customer, spend money because the merchant gives a chunk of it to them, usually with an additional flat fee. (Different merchants and card processors have different payment structures. A grocery store is more likely to pay a much higher fixed daily fee to avoid unpredictable transaction fees on small purchases)
They don’t lower your score if you pay back early. People get confused because they see their score drop after going from $10k credit card limit with $800 in monthly usage paid on time every time and a $500 balance on a $25k car loan that’s been paid on time every month to just the credit card. The reason it went down is that the number of regular timely payments went down, which means fewer trust signals, and credit utilization went up. (3% to 8%). It doesn’t however snap down as though you hadn’t just made a bunch of good payments, it just doesn’t boost when you’re done.
The credit card company makes the most money when you make a huge number of modest purchases and then immediately pay them back. When you have credit card debt their money is sitting in the merchants account. They want to minimize the time they don’t have their money so they charge you based on the risk that you never pay them back, after a grace period. (You have usually a month before any interest acrues).
It’s why as you get better credit scores the credit card company starts offering you increasing incentives to buy things. Bonus cash back on purchases at places that tend to be frequent, smaller purchases without bulk processing rates and so one. They’ll refund you on purchases in a dispute with the merchant and then figure out the merchant dispute independently (usually by just dropping it because they don’t care about $124.99 in potentially substandard curtains or whatever they just want the customer to keep buying curtains and the merchant to keep thinking it’s a net positive). You’re a walking $0.25 + 3.0% per purchase. Making you regret spending money is the last thing they want.
Hmm, I don’t think so. I’m in my 60s and I’ve always paid my credit cards in full each month when they’re due. Until very recently, I did have a mortgage and paid the regular payment (with occasional extra payments for principle), do they did make money off of me there. My credit rating has pretty much always been at or near the highest it can be.
If you’re talking out of your ass, I’m impressed
Thank you, I have been training daily