Joseph Stalin was a communist leader inspired by Leon Trotsky

Trotsky was a communist revolutionary and intellectual. He once wrote “In politics, obtaining power and maintaining power justifies anything” in his book “Leur morale et la nôtre”*
In this book, Trotsky justifies the use of lies, infiltration of other political parties, smearing, even hostage taking. He says absolute ruthlesness is necessary to overthrow a hostile system and wield power. He concludes "We are acting for the greater good. We can’t be restrained by normal morality".
Joseph Stalin took Trotsky’s advice literally. So he murdered Trotsky because he saw him as rival. Stalin also started killing people because he believed they could be sympathetic to capitalism or opponents to his power.
Matvei Bronstein: Theorical physicist. Pioneer of quantum gravity. Arrested, accused of fictional “terroristic” activity and shot in 1938
Lev Shubnikov: Experimental physicist. Accused on false charges. Executed
Adrian Piotrovsky: Russian dramaturge. Accused on false charges of treason. Executed.
Nikolai Bukharin: Leader of the Communist revolution. Member of the Politburo. Falsely accused of treason. Executed.
General Alexander Egorov: Marshal of the Soviet Union. Commander of the Red Army Southern Front. Member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Arrested, accused on false charges, executed.
General Mikhail Tukhachevsky: Supreme Marshal of the Soviet Union. Nicknamed the Red Napoleon. Arrested, accused on fake charges. Executed.
Grigory Zinoviev:: Communist intellectual. Chairman of the Communist International Movement. Member of the Soviet Politburo. Accused of treason and executed.
Even the secret police themselves were not safe:
Genrikh Yagoda : Right-hand of Joseph Stalin. Head of the NKD Secret Police. He spied on everyone and jailed thousands of innocents. Arrested and executed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda
Nikolai Yezhov : Appointed head of the NKD Secret Police after the killing of Yagoda. Arrested on fake charges. Also executed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov
Everybody was absolutely terrified during this period. At least 500 000 people were murdered. Over 1 million people were deported to Gulags, secret prisons in Siberia, where they worked 12 hours a day.
Joseph Stalin decided to crush Ukraine for resisting communism and supporting independance. In 1933, he seized all Ukraine’s food. In the next months, 5 million Ukrainians were starved to death. The situation was so bad that thousands of Ukrainians turned to cannibalism. When Nazis invaded Ukraine, some Ukrainians thought they were saviors
https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor
https://www.history.com/articles/ukrainian-famine-stalin
Hitler was a monster, but we really don’t talk enough about how bad Stalin was.


Could it be because “actual socialism/communism” has never existed in reality and every time it was attempted, it turned out to be a “grinding, socialist state”?
Cuba?
No.
Care to elaborate? How is Cuba not socialist?
It did exist, it’s just that in the past, the real socialist revolutions were crushed by the authoritarians.
That presumes they were trying socialism/communism and not just using it as a cover for their authoritarian ideology.
I dunno, the Bolsheviks did a lot of good stuff in the early days 🤔
That’s a bingo! Same with China today.
Adding quotes for reference:
Yeah… if I’m not mistaken, basically Russia was pre-industrial society before the revolution, and needed Europe to revolutionize too for that industry; but viceversa might not have been true, because had Europe revolutionized first, we could have pushed through the hardships with our preexisting industry.
But that revolution didn’t come, so Russia was left crippled: still pre-industrial, and damaged from the revolution, from the World War, and from imperialists trying to stop them.
That crippling made workers enter survival mode, both morally and literally, not being able to participate in democracy, which is what ultimately let Stalin and his allies raise to power and do what he did.
And because the few other states who revolutionized were dependant on the USSR, the degradation towards Stalinism affected them as well and made them degrade into their own version of it.
I think you could make the same argument with just about any economic policy. Free market capitalism has never existed in reality and every time it was attempted, it turned out to be an abstract of colonial imperialism.
It ends up billions of apes are hard to govern in a way that excludes usery and violence.
A most interesting theory, comrade. Perhaps you would like to give a speech further exploring your ideas in the basement of the secret police headquarters?
Humans are the problem. Any system we come up with will be corrupted eventually.
While technically true, some systems make it far easier than others.
I mean, it took capitalism about 200 years to be corrupted because the economic power starts off more decentralized than communism or socialism.
That’s not to say capitalism is a good option, because it clearly isn’t, but communism and socialism require a more centralized federal government by default which is a much smaller point of failure.
But the problem is people with cluster B personality disorders and those who follow them. Some systems are easier for them to infiltrate, but it happens to all of them eventually.
The people who should have power are rarely the ones who seek it, unfortunately. I like Heinlein’s (I think, might have been Asimov) take on it. Government officials should be dragged in kicking and screaming and only be allowed to leave when they do a good job.
Hierarchy is the problem. Any social system that allows for it will be corrupted eventually.
I invite you to describe the framework for a society that functions without any form of hierarchy, then.
That is the entire purpose of Anarchism; to remove hierarchies and instead implement a truly horizontal and egalitarian society. This was put into practice in Catalonia in the 1930’s, and from all historical accounts we have of that period, it was extremely successful. There’s also some great books on that period that goes into detail of how it operated, such as this one.
The main issue I’m seeing is that the success stories are from relatively small groups.
Many systems, like communism, work fine in small scale applications, but scaling them up to the size of a country or continent doesn’t tend to work because there’re too many moving parts to not have inherent vertical hierarchies and multiple failure points where bad actors can corrupt the system.
It’s not the system of government that’s the ultimate issue, it’s the people who are the problem. Unless we start talking about using eugenics to address the cluster B personality disorder issue, I don’t really see this changing. I think it’s humanity’s Great Filter.
There were roughly 1.6 million participants in Anarchist Catalonia. More recently, Rojava (Kurdish Syria) has successfully operated on a decentralized/federated system heavily inspired by Anarchist theory, and that had a population of 4.6 million, with no major internal issues or strife.
Anarchist theory is, in my opinion, one of the best defenses against Cluster B people getting in positions of power. Under a centralized government, a bad actor has tremendous power, and there is often limited options for a population to counter that corruption, since it is often self-reinforcing by the system itself. As an example, to corrupt the US, corporations need only bribe a few hundred senators, and then can effectively implement self-serving laws that reinforce monopolies of power.
In a system with decentralized power where the community itself is the bedrock of power, how does an outside force effectively corrupt it? They can bribe a community’s delegates, but those can be immediately removed if corruption is perceived by the community. To make any headway, they would effectively need to bribe an entire community, which could be thousands of people, and those people would have no incentive to take those bribes if the bribe was to prop-up something detrimental to that community.
Because every position of power has so little power in a decentralized community, a Cluster B personality would have very little ability to cause damage compared to a centralized system.
Also, bear in mind that according to studies, only about 1.6% of the population has a Cluster B personality. The reason they are able to wreak so much havoc is pretty much entirely due to having centralized governments, as well as an economic system that rewards and empowers cluster B behavior, both of which work synergistically to result in the worst possible outcome for the majority.
For an Anarchist society to flurish long-term, it would also need to eliminate capitalism almost immediately, and instead replace it with universal basic rights to food, housing, healthcare, and public transportation, alongside a library and gift economy, reinforcing a society built on mutual aid.
If you’d like to see how that sort of world would look like for an average person, I’d highly suggest reading The Dispossessed.
1.6 and 4.6 million people is an extremely small population when you’re discussing applying it to a population of 8 billion. As the population scales up a centralized government is inevitable because the system has too many moving parts.
To make any of this happen globally, or even just a country, you have to rely on all people behaving differently than they have for the past several thousand years. Human tribalism, selfishness, and greed were a problem way before capitalism was a thing.
Respectfully I have to disagree there.
I haven’t found that to be the case in my research. Decentralized modes of society appear to scale very well as long as it is combined with federation.
While hierarchical oppressive societies have been prevalent for the past 8,000 years, new evidence shows that before that, the norm for humans were egalitarian societies, so our current path is quite an aberration from that norm. If you’d like to delve into that research yourself, you can read it for free here.
1930’s Catalonia and Rojava are very solid evidence that with the right societal structure, we can actually bring out that latent egalitarian ability of humans. People who lived through what happened in Catalonia described there being a period of acclimation to the concept of things being free, yet only taking what you need, but that once people understood that there would be more waiting for them later, they quickly adapted to living in a post-scarcity fashion. There’s a good documentary on that topic here, if you’re interested.
All of these frameworks would require every person to work for the betterment of society. It is a nice sentiment, but not really realistic. That is why they call it utopian.
Does every person not wish for the betterment of their lives and that of their community? When people’s needs are universally met, for what purpose would someone act out of greed or malice? And why do you suppose that a robust and flexible societal structure couldn’t handle such hypothetical bad actors appropriately? The practice of anarchic principles isnt some fictive utopia, but a process by which people (actual, real, living people right now) actively work to improve the lives of those around them.
Chiming in to say that you can check out the book Getting Free: Creating An Association Of Democratic Autonomous Neighborhoods (James Herod) (though it might not be 100% framework), and the book “Anarchy Works” by Peter Gelderloos (the latter might supply less of a framework but still worth reading I think)
2 quotes from “Anarchy Works” for general reference:
But a governing council and a military are both examples of a hierarchical structure.
They don’t have to be, they can be cooperative/communal endeavors where people arrive at decisions together, where nobody is coerced
So nothing would ever get done?
Who gets to decide how much of a percentage of the council needs to agree before a motion gets accepted?
Like, it is a romantic sentiment “every decides together”, but how would that work practically? Someone will have more power than the others. And when that happens, you have a hierarchy.
It does work in communities around the world, though each community can do it differently. You can look into the practice of consensus for a general way of doing that.
And adding:
Not necessarily. Councils can be an effective form of consensus decision making without those councils having any greater authority than the people they represent. Militaries can also operate (effectively) without top-down hierarchical structures. I’ve heard the term “leaderful” (as opposed to leaderless) used to describe these types of organized-yet-nonhierarchical structures.
But the councils have to have more authority to be the ones making the decisions instead of the people they represent.
Any form of delegation of responsibility is going to have some hierarchical aspect to it because you’re giving the delegate the authority to make decisions on your behalf.
I don’t think it’s possible to completely remove hierarchies from society, but I think the real issue is the general population glorifies those positions of power, and that attracts people who shouldn’t ever be in a position of power.
But if that delegate (and the council itself) has no more authority than the people they represent, anyone who feels their position isn’t being represented can raise the issue and represent themselves or their point of view. These types of systems are reliant on civic engagement far exceeding what most people in the western world would consider possible.
This is also part of why many anarchists make the distinction of just vs unjust hierarchy. Just hierarchy is when the respected elder or community organizer in a neighborhood represents the neighborhoods interest in the council, and has regular meetings with the people they represent to ensure all views are represented. Unjust hierarchy is when 51% of the 20% of the population that actually voted puts the person who invested the most money into their campaign in charge.
The point is to structure your society in a horizontal way such that no person or group of people has any degree of power greater than any other, and has no method of gaining greater power. As I’ve said elsewhere, there are miriad ways of accomplishing this, and each community tends to have solutions that work for them even if that solution wouldn’t work for another community.
I have a library full of books on the subject, but you can start at https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/anarchism
I didn’t ask for a library of books. I invited you to explain it.
I mentioned my library on the subject to indicate that there is no simple answer to that question, and probably not even a single answer for all situations/locations/peoples. The theory of non-hierarchical societal structures is an entire field of study, and the practice of it, like all anticapitalist movements, is always stamped out to the greatest extent possible by those in power. There are however existing examples of anarchist or pseudo-anarchist communities.
The EZLN of the Chiapas region of mexico has largely maintained autonomy since the early 90s, and the Kurdish resistance movement in Rojava (inspired by the writings of Abdullah Öcalan) has established similar autonomy despite the ongoing war efforts.
On a smaller scale, you’ll find “intentional communities” around the world, most of them taking elements of Libertarian Socialism in the ways that are most feasible and useful to them.
I view the general problem with it is simply the existence of other societies.
IE lets say you have 4 societies on an island. 3 of them put all of their focus into developing a sustainable workable long term solution, farming/fishing etc…
1 of them, works on building weapons and attacking the other 3. Result, the murderous colony kills the other 3, then eventually either learns to act like the ones it killed and produce food, or it dies out with nothing left to raid.
Or like say rabbits, if you try and raise rabbits. You drop 2 in the wolf enclosure and see what happens. obviously the result is the rabbits die out. it’s not that rabbits aren’t a viable evolutionary path. It’s that without time and space to grow their numbers before getting encroached by the nearby predators, there’s no shot.
Point I’m making is… the biggest problem of developing any system, that works better on the whole. is outside interference. It’s the same concept that say modern manufacturing would make smaller and lighter cars better and far more cost efficient. They would be safer except for the fact that they wouldn’t survive a collision with an SUV. It’s not the smaller lighter car that’s the problem. It’s the established systems with their flaws are integrated into society.