Hello,

I am thinking about teaching my students JavaScript first so that they can start creating websites and make their career, what are your thoughts?

  • Daedskin@lemmy.zip
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    4 hours ago

    Like a lot of people mentioned, there’s a few good things you could start with, but C is probably not one of them. At my old job I ran a course for software engineer 2s to go over C, and even they had some struggles with it. If professional engineers struggle with C, it’s maybe not the best starting point. Even C++ might be better, but still adds a lot of complexity that isn’t necessary to know as immediately as the beginning.

    Whenever people ask me where to start, I say python. It gives you a relatively tame taste of environment setup, and can run code very easily and flexibly. Its type system is flexible enough to make a user aware of it, without it being as rigid as C or as vague as javascript. Because there’s enough libraries that are easy to pull in, even a beginner can start building useful programs without having to know how to build something equivalent to those libraries themselves.

    Obviously if you want them to make websites, javascript will be necessary eventually, and isn’t a bad place to start. If you’re going purely for CS knowledge, I do think python is a little better; going from python to JS is probably easier than JS to python.

  • lorty@lemmy.ml
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    5 hours ago

    The fact that every computer has a browser where they can practice javascript probably makes it the better option. Python would probably require, on Windows, some setup that isn’t what you want to spend time on, and may be a barrier to them trying stuff on their own time at home.

  • MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml
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    8 hours ago

    I would start with Python. It’s a fun language to learn, and generally recommended for beginners. Towards the end, I would spend a few sessions on c, not to teach them c but to give them an appreciation for what they get for free in higher level languages.

  • Cryxtalix@programming.dev
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    6 hours ago

    No way it’s C. The average student will go home and find that they can’t do much of anything they like, with the level of C they know. Even printing a string is famously hard in C, they’ll hate it. Nothing drains their interest in programming faster than segfaults.

    The average students wants to build games, websites, discord bots etc. Javascript makes it easy, none are easy in C.

        • Flamekebab@piefed.social
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          3 hours ago

          I’m glad someone is saying it. I’m a software engineer and someone elsewhere in this thread is giving me shit for not having much use for the low level stuff.

          I was teaching a junior about character encoding a couple of months ago (I suspect his CS degree came free in a box of cereal) but most of what we do is build tooling on top of other tooling. I’m not working on bare metal here!

  • grue@lemmy.world
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    9 hours ago

    Neither. Teach them Scheme. They need to start by building good habits (functional programming).

    “Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.” ― Pablo Picasso

    • thehairguy@lemmy.zip
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      5 hours ago

      +1 to scratch, I’ve used it to both teach kids at one of those “stem summer camps” and adults who do recruiting for tech firms. Both groups were able to pick it up pretty quickly

  • abbadon420@sh.itjust.works
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    14 hours ago

    If you also plan on teaching html and css, than I’d go for js first. Having your code instantly response in a visual way, is super motivating for most students.
    If you just want to tech programming concepts, i’d go for python.
    If you want this to be the start of a complete cs study, than you can start with C

    • ghodawalaaman@programming.devOP
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      13 hours ago

      That makes sense, I am also teaching html amd css first so I think JavaScript makes sense to teach next.

      I was thinking about C because that’s the first thing I learned in the college and that’s my favorite language till this day.

      • Mirror Giraffe@piefed.social
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        7 hours ago

        Good call. At this point the jankyness of js doesn’t pose a problem and the ones that get enticed will learn about type safety, classes etc down the line.

      • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        12 hours ago

        The problem with C as a language for learning is that the error messages are not very specific or descriptive and often you need extra context to understand what is happening. Messing up memory management can result in inconsistent gremlin-like behavior from your programs, it can get very tricky. I had a pretty difficult time when I got to classes that taught C compared to other languages, but the main thing was just that I needed someone to look over my work and explain things to me because unlike with other languages, the self-service ways of figuring it out were much more difficult and it’s easier to get stuck with no idea what to look into next. I ended up begging people online for help with understanding what was going wrong with my programs to supplement the limited amount of time the professor and TAs were available, really grateful to those guys as I probably would have failed it otherwise.

        Anyway I would just say that if you do really want to go with C, I think you should be willing to put in more time to explain things to students one on one because many of them may need it.

  • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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    10 hours ago

    Probably JS as the fact that every computer has by default everything you need to execute JS. But there is a bunch of browser stuff you have to worry about before you can do anything with it. I’m not sure how you learn JS before html.

    With Python you can do simple command line stuff without having to really know anything else. You can learn one concept at a time.

    That being said, people have a lot of familiarity with browsers and it might feel less abstract. JS might a better choice for demystifying coding. Python is probably a better choice for accomplishing anything useful.

  • jtrek@startrek.website
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    8 hours ago

    Javascript is a horrible language, but it is ubiquitous. You’ll want to spend a little time on html and css if you expect them to do more than print output.

    You could focus on TypeScript, which will help them avoid some of the worst things, but then you spend more time on tooling and it won’t just run in the browser console.

    Python is a reasonably popular language with a good standard library. It has fewer bizarre quirks like adding two lists of ints together to get a string.

    I wouldn’t teach C to a general audience.

  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip
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    10 hours ago

    Python. They’ll only learn bad patterns from JS. Please teach bottom-up knowledge, not top-down narrow scope.

  • greenashura@sh.itjust.works
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    14 hours ago

    Why not python? C needs constant memory management and JavaScript is too chaotic. Both seem to me a bit too complicated for someone just starting

    • ghodawalaaman@programming.devOP
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      13 hours ago

      The main reason to not including python is that students aren’t particularly in the CS field, they are learning it as their “augmented skill” (I don’t know what it’s called bad English). That’s why I don’t want to force them to learn CS concept which they might not even need.

      I was thinking about C so that their fundamentals gets cleared but I think it will be too much for students who aren’t into CS. What do you think ?

      • calcopiritus@lemmy.world
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        1 hour ago

        Idk why you are discarding python for the reason that makes python the best option. If there is a programming language that a non-programmer should know, it’s python.

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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        9 hours ago

        Python allows you to focus on a single concept in isolation (building on what you’ve already learned, of course). JS has a bunch of other stuff mixed in. Like the DOM. Interacting with the DOM is necessary for any browser code. You can hide it with abstractions and boilerplate, but it’s always going to surface in error messages. Debugging JS can be quite a bit harder than other languages.

        Caveat: beginner JS is many years behind me. It may not be as bad as corporate code full of react and angular and all kinds of requirements.

      • BillyClark@piefed.social
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        13 hours ago

        If they’re not in the CS field, and you don’t want to teach them CS concepts that they don’t need, then you have eliminated C as an option by your own criteria.

        With C, they’ll have to learn about compilers, build systems, memory management, and pointers at the very least.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        9 hours ago

        The main reason to not including python is that students aren’t particularly in the CS field, they are learning it as their “augmented skill” (I don’t know what it’s called bad English). That’s why I don’t want to force them to learn CS concept which they might not even need.

        That’s an even better reason to pick Python, then.

  • communism@lemmy.ml
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    8 hours ago

    Without knowing anything about your students, it’s hard to say. If I were the student I’d much prefer to be taught C, but that’s because I have an existing interest in computers and a desire to develop systems programming skills. I wouldn’t like to teach JS to anyone because it’s a bad language and I don’t want students to go away making more web 3 slop but if they actively are interested in making web 3 slop that’d be a case for teaching JS. I’m of the pedagogical school of teaching students what they are actually interested in learning. They might not know enough about programming to know which language they want to learn off the bat, but maybe ask them what sort of software they’re interested in making. If they want to make websites, you might want to teach them something like Python with Flask, as something less bad than JS as well as easy enough to learn.

    Imo C is a good teaching language as it teaches you a lot about how computers work, as well as the fact that nearly everything runs on C. It is “harder” though, and imo is also for students who are actually interested.

  • Anaeijon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    6 hours ago

    Depends in the goal.

    If they are interested in Hardware, there is no better solution, than buying a hand full of cheap, “knock-off” Arduino Nano or RP2040 boards, a couple of LEDs and resistors and then let them Experiment with Arduino C, which teaches C programming in a fun and meaningful manner.

    If they should get actual useful skill, start with Python. It’s easy to learn. It’s widely used for small, single-person projects, e.g. for gathering and analyzing data, running simulations, organizing something, interacting with APIs…

    For any project, where I’d say, that it can be done quickly by a single person quickly on the side, Python is usually the best option. Even for experienced programmers. But especially for people that are new to programming or learning. It’s easy, approachable and (because everything is handled by some library) quite safe to work with.

    It’s by far the most useful language for anyone that isn’t a full software developer. And it’s among the easiest to learn.

    Also, when teaching Python, consider teaching with Jupyer documents. It immediately shows, what the short block of code is doing, instead of writing a huge and long script file, then executing it and struggling with debugging where students might not even know, how to start. An easy to host solution to supply Jupyer to a whole class is JupyterHub. If you aren’t concerned about your students data, Google Colab is a JupyterHub for free.

    And now, finally, if you want a course that has some practical use (e.g. data analysis and math stuff) while also doing fun things and being incredibly interactive because of the use of hardware… Well… It’s python again.

    Let them write a short branching story using Ren’Py. It’s easy and will get them engaged. Go on and switch to Jupyter/Colab and do a bit of data scraping, data analysis/math or image filters. Basically introduce numpy, then pandas, then scipy, beautiful soup or openCV. Pure hard skills, that are applicable in many jobs. But realistically, due to time constraints in normal courses, all you want to do here, is numpy to get into it and automate math homework, followed by pandas, to load and automate excel files. And finally, let them do something with hardware, by programming a RP2040 in microPython. It’s not as widely adopted as the Arduino ecosystem, but it’s good enough for the simple stuff students will be able to learn, and you don’t have to introduce a completely different language.

  • Scrath@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    10 hours ago

    After reading through some of the comments, here is my opinion.

    C would be a good language IF you know your students plan to get into IT, specifically a sector where the low level knowledge is useful. Beyond that, I assume your students probably use windows and I personally always find it a pain to work with C on windows outside of full IDEs like jetbrains and Visual Studio. It’s also a lot more work till you get some results that you are happy about. Unless you start with an Arduino, which I find pretty nice to get students interested in embedded stuff.

    I don’t like JavaScript because I find it a mess although it is very useful for anything web related.

    Given you said in another comment that this is meant to be a general purpose skill for your students I would strongly recommend python. While I dislike the dynamic type system, it is a very powerful language to get stuff done. You can quickly get results that feel rewarding instead of running into hard to fix issues that turn your students off of programming in general. Also it’s very useful outside of IT as a scripting language for analyzing data in basically any field or for generating nice plots for some document

    • Pycorax@sh.itjust.works
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      9 hours ago

      C on windows outside of full IDEs like jetbrains and Visual Studio

      My university used gcc on WSL and it worked fine. VS Code integrates well with it so you can use your VS Code installation on Windows to your code editing.