[a sign reads FEMINIST CONFERENCE next to a closed door, a blue character shrugs and says…]
I don’t care
[next to the same door, the sign now says RESTRICTED FEMINIST CONFERENCE WOMEN ONLY, there are now four blue characters desperately banging on the door, one is reduced to tears on the floor, they are shouting]
DISCRIMINATION
SO UNFAIR!!!
LET US IINN!!
MISANDRY
You know, this is quite common for both genders. A major part of earlier feminist demands was “We want to get in on all the male spaces”. You know, having the right to go to football games, military, and so on.
It’s currently quite a big political topic in my country that feminists are demanding that some traditional men-only shooting clubs should open up to women. A ton of women demanding that the clubs are opened for women aren’t even interested in actually joining these shooting clubs (and in fact often wouldn’t even be allowed to join because they are regional clubs and they are from a different region), but that doesn’t matter.
What they protest for is not that they can actually join, but that they’d be allowed to join in theory.
It’s also a quite big thing over here that women started to go into men’s restrooms during events and such when there’s a queue on the women’s restroom.
So why would anyone be surprised that the same thing happens the other way round too?
There are always some idiots who’s identity hinges on making sure others can’t have safe spaces.
Here’s a question to ask yourself:
Outside of toilets why are they gendered
Why is it a “men only” shooting club? Do you have special guns that only penises can fire?
Because they are a male safe space where men can be among themselves. There are plenty of non-gendered shooting clubs, so here’s a question to ask yourself: Why would a woman need to be part of exactly the one that is gendered?
It’s obviously not about access to a shooting club, since she could just join a non-gendered one.
So why exactly does she need to abolish a men’s safe space?
Does the feminist meeting above have special words only vaginas can say?
So what exactly is it about men about themsleves they can’t do around women? What makes this an equivalence to the women’s lemmy community group and its mission as defined?
I mean you’re trying to use the words, show the concepts .
Genderswap your statement and you start to understand the issue. What is it about women that they cannot do or talk around men?
It seems to me like you don’t think of men as humans.
Men aren’t excluded from the comm.
They’re just asked not to speak
The club isn’t allowing women to be present at all
Now do you see the false equivalence?
So you’re saying women should be allowed, we should ask them not to speak while at the club… Are you sure you’re not Republican or something?
That opinion is somehow even worse… Nice catch.
Yeah, the false equivalency is that you are saying that safe spaces don’t matter unless you want them.
You are arguing in bad faith.
The club doesn’t matter to you. You don’t even know which club it is. You don’t even know which country this is about. The club doesn’t affect you in any way, but you are against it, because you are against safe spaces for men.
Men are human too, no matter what you think.
Come back with something other than strawmen
Ok, let’s step back from your litte offtopic strawman excursion to some random lemmy community:
Do you think there should be any female-only safe spaces where men are not allowed? Yes or no, simple question.
I mean…on the flip side, do women have discussions that only vaginas can have?
you can both be right here, because both sides are equally valid.
just to add,
during the civil rights movement it was important to have equity, and I’d say when it comes to gender equity we’re far more progressive about it today than 60 years ago.
I would say it’s only fair to have gender blocked communities as a form of equity. whereas before women didn’t even have the option to have a safe space unlike today.
Very different arrangement.
The group online is asking for women only to speak (you can be a member, you can read posts, just limited on who can speak), because women’s voices are drowned out
Men aren’t being overwhelmed and chased from gun clubs by hordes of women
I agree that women have the right to create communities where male voices are limited or silenced.
I disagree that it’s a different arrangement.
in the spirit of equity it’s only fair that men are afforded the exact same rights as women. this would include the right to create communities where female voices are limited or silenced.
regardless of if women are utilizing their right to join gun clubs doesn’t negate the right to a safe space to anybody.
This here. I don’t quite get how someone can argue that safe spaces for one gender should exist but not for the other gender.
Everyone needs safe spaces, and women’s safe spaces aren’t threatened at all by the existence of men’s safe spaces.
There seems to exist a radical subsection of fundamental feminists who are against anything that might be good for men on principle. Kinda how there’s a radical subsection of male assholes who believe the same for women. People like that suck and are exactly why we can’t have nice things.
Big difference between being allowed to piss and shoot and being allowed into a women’s club to talk about women-specific issues.
No. It really doesn’t matter. A safe space is a safe space. You think the guys at the shooting clubs do nothing but shoot? They talk there about men-specific issues.
There are plenty of non-gender restricted shooting clubs in my country and there are womens toilets in my country too. It’s not about women not being allowed to piss or shoot. It’s about these specific women not being ok with the fact that safe spaces for men exist.
Same as the guys in the OP. They don’t protest because they specifically need to be in this meeting because they want to discuss women-specific issues. They are just not ok with safe spaces for women existing.
In both directions it’s a power thing. People like that (no matter the gender) get off on taking things away from others. The point is not to be able to be in that place, but to take away safe spaces from someone else. And that’s an asshole move for asshole reasons no matter if the person doing that is a man or a woman.
So what about you? Are you ok with male safe spaces existing? If not, tell me, what reason for that do you have that is not an asshole reason?
Safe spaces are important for everyone. My non-asshole reason is: I like to piss and shoot.
Edit: If we’re talking about the UK, we’re talking about a place where women alive today remember not being allowed to go to pubs because women weren’t allowed to drink alone in public. I support them taking back unnecessarily gendered spaces.
Can you piss in a toilet that fits your gender and is just a few meters farther down the hallway? Can you shoot in the next shooting club down the road?
If yes, why exactly does it have to be in the one that is a safe space for someone else?
Because there’s no reason why a shooting club needs to be gendered. If you can’t see the difference between a hobby club and a protected safe space for a certain group I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on that issue.
The toilet thing is a bit more complicated. Generally, women take longer to use the washroom for mechanical reasons, and the same toilet space is usually allotted to both genders while men’s bathrooms have urinals as well as toilets, which take up less space - more pissers per square foot, if you will. That’s why the lineup to a women’s washroom is usually longer, and why I would absolutely use a men’s washroom rather than piss myself.
I’m fine with men using the women’s washroom when they need to. If there’s one thing everyone should be able to do regardless of the sign on the door, it’s taking a piss when they have to.
So men are not allowed to choose their safe spaces, is that what you are saying?
Or are you dictating which activities are allowed to be performed in a safe space?
There are non-gendered shooting clubs. Why would it be not ok for there also to be gendered shooting clubs?
In general, your post is all about “Safe spaces are only for me, screw everyone else”. That’s an asshole take.
This is called a strawman argument.
No it is not. Please read up on what a strawman argument is.
No, I get it why they are upset. Their feelings are hurt by a space existing that they are specifically excluded from. This is the same for any other situation that would say they are excluded from.
I for example, would not feel terrible if I didn’t study to be an Engineer because I don’t care about it. But having the possibility outright denied because of a factor not really from a fault of mine (like being too short, or from the wrong bloodline, or something similar) would make me pretty bitter.
I learned to not care and be Zen about people having secrets, and secret clubs, and things I never can.
Except for the Engineer one, I am still pretty bitter about it.
Yes because everyone knows when men get together all they do is burp, fart, piss, and tell racist jokes.
There are a ton of dogshit takes in this thread.
You’re literally the only person in this thread saying that.
Your comment you trog, only things I added were burping and farting — congrats on your tag.
You were talking about toilets and shooting clubs.
For one thing I wasn’t the OC. For another, what the OC immediately pointed out is that women have been invading male only spaces for decades. In fact it was practically propagandized following the second World War, unless we’re conveniently forgetting about ‘Anything you can do I can do better! Anything you can do I can do best!’ .
Literally, men’s only private clubs were almost sued out of existence because of women alleging discrimination (because they weren’t allowed in and the club catered to men first, god forbid).
All of this to say, completely disregarding what men actually do in male spaces is thoughtless at best — misandry at worst. Truth be told, I don’t actually give a fuck if men or women have safe spaces — I don’t expect anything of value to come from either environment. I blocked the women’s only community immediately.
Rule 1, be nice.
What. The comment above me mentioned bathrooms and shooting clubs. How does that extrapolate to racism?