[green, speaking, looking smug]
Okay, hear me out, here’s the plan…
We go full apathy, basically we let capitalism fully spiral out into fascism. Once it’s done, people will rise up and the system will collapse under its own weight. From its ashes, with our help, a better society will rise. This is how we win.
[we now see that green is tied up in front of a bleak wall, along with a group of other people, being aimed at by a firing squad of characters in fascist uniforms]
[green, smiling] OK?
[blue, pissed] Dude…
True, but that is part of the natural order. At the end of the day, humans are just another parasitic and unchecked species that is probably going to learn about their own environmental limits the hard way.
The problem is capitalism. Don’t make it about humans as a species when there are countless counter examples we can learn from
The Soviets were shit on environmentalism for a long time. We didn’t see a serious environmental movement in China until the early 2000s. We’ve never really seen one in the USSR, prior to its collapse.
The alternative to Capitalism is not necessarily whatever the fuck the Soviets’ idea of Communism was.
“Capitalism caused all these ecological problems”
“Okay what about the same problems occurring outside of a capitalist framework”
“Those don’t count”
Shrug
You’ve got to move beyond the ideological and address the material. Ecological harm isn’t predicated on privatized profit.
“I’m sick, my covid test is positive. I’m staying at home.”
“Actually, noro virus has similar symptoms. The problem isn’t covid.”
Shrug
“COVID is the problem”
“I’ve got norovirus”
“That doesn’t matter”
More like “I had norovirus a month ago but now I’ve got covid.” The Soviet Union doesn’t matter because it doesn’t exist anymore and China is a capitalist country for a while now. The problem is capitalism because it’s the world system now. There are countless counter examples so the problem isn’t humanity. Bolshevism isn’t a counter examples (because it wasn’t any better) but neither is it the problem because it doesn’t exist anymore. Neither is the Roman Empire.
True. That’s not what I had in mind when I talked about alternatives.
It’s not about humans as a species. Capitalism is definitely a driving factor, but this is far from the first time a species has developed maladaptive tendencies that led to ecological destabilization. I am not saying it’s good, but it is not a uniquely human phenomenon by any means.
True, just look at what they are finding out about ancient South American society in the Amazon. Apparently, at one point humans nearly wiped out most of the Amazon rainforest to have gigantic, almost New York sized metropolitan cities.
The problem is about greed and corruption. Communism doesn’t fix that.
And a culture that reinforces it.
If you are talking about Bolshevism, I agree.
I mean if you hate yourself that much there’s other options than trying to take us out with you
I’m not trying to do anything, but if humans drive themselves to extinction, it is what it is. The planet will go on, new intelligent life will develop eventually, hopefully, if not here than some other planet. But maybe we will come close to the brink of extinction and then finally wake up, perhaps that is what it will take.
Even parasites are important to the environment. Also, if you wanna be dragged down to hell, don’t pull us with you.
Not every species is perfectly adapted to the environment forever. Multiple mass extinctions due to ecological destabilization have proven that.
Humans are the exception precisely because they can see the axe falling and move out of the way.
Outside of the fossil fuel dominated US/Saudi sphere, we’ve seen an enormous collaborated effort to curb greenhouse gases. Not everyone is ignoring the risks and consequences.
What we have the capitalist West is a conscious choice between short term profit and long term survival.
Yes, some have taken steps to move away from fossil fuels, but not all, and most scientists agree it is too late without negative emissions. I agree that it is largely driven by capitalism, and that in and of itself is a root cause of many problems with our species and should be done away with, but if it takes the entire world falling apart to make the realities undeniably apparent, then so be it. I’m not saying I want it to happen, just that that may be the only thing that can make the conditions for real lasting change.
I mean, “too late” for what is always the question. Folks keep insisting The Apocalypse is next month. And then it doesn’t come, and we get a wave of “I guess nothing actually ever happens” during a new record heat wave.
The world is a big place. It’s not clear what “falling apart” is even supposed to look like.
I’m seeing people predicting a 4% drop in population because of a particularly harsh El Nino this year. I’ve been hearing about a looming economic crash that’s at least ten years overdue.
At the scope of a human life, all of this is still very gradual change. You’re going to be living in the middle of it and not realize how much has changed because you never knew subzero weather in St. Louis or glaciers in Montana were normal.
The talk is of some kind of sharp sudden drop, and not the further churn of a 30,000 year old global extinction event.
When did I say anything about it being rapid or sudden change? Climate change is slow, and the effects are felt over decades. I am fully aware of this, and just because the effects are akin to boiling a frog, it does not mean that the ultimate effects will not be devastating.