I find the comments in these threads unbelievable.
If pretty much any company on earth threatened a supplier over a storefront they have nothing to do with, there would be outrage. That’s blatant anticompetitiveness. It means they have the power to set pricing like a dictator because their store alone is more important than the rest.
It’s a fact. A state of the matter. It is a textbook definition of monopolism in progress.
Yet Lemmy, and every gaming forum, turn out to defend Valve?
WTF.
I mean, I’m not ditching my Steam library. Valve does many things right. But I wouldn’t be caught dead defending the greedy monopolistic practices of… any corporation abusing such a situation.
I haven’t seen a single convincing argument to justify this specific policy from Valve, either.
There is no justification if what you describe is true. But a lot of people are willing to give Valve benefit of the doubt, assuming it is false until proven in court. Especially coming from Ubisoft of all places.
This is an older article. Ubisoft was (and is?) pulling some shady shit here though. What they’re doing:
Selling the base game via Steam for free (limited features, but most important stuff is there) or a frequently discounted amount for full access (think less than 10 bucks).
Selling a bonus starter pack that can be used for the Steam game for a larger amount (used to be 20? Looks like 15 now) exclusively via Ubisoft’s own platform.
So for a new player to get started, they’d get the base game for free, with Valve paying for all the costs related to the download infrastructure, etc…, and then pay Ubisoft directly for their ingame starter gear, bypassing Valve entirely. This was just an attempt by Ubisoft to skirt by Valve’s rules.
Valve is extremely lenient when it comes to this sort of stuff. But they’re not going to allow a publisher to abuse the system to essentially get free game distribution via Steam while still making a profit via this side channel. It’s basically a way to bypass the Steam key resell rule, where Steam keys may not be resold for lower prices on other platforms (but you don’t have to pay the 30% fee when you do).
To put Ubisoft’s case to the extreme, imagine a game comes out for free on Steam, but opening it opens up another storefront where you first need to pay 60 bucks to actually play the game. Does it make sense for Valve to continue offering their services here if they are blocked from making any money off of it?
The thing being described is exactly how Amazon fucked the market. If someone can understand why Amazon is bad (business-wise) then they can understand why Valve needs to be held accountable. Lest they become the Amazon of vidjagames
I think one reason is that given the stage in capitalism we’ve been living for some time now has completely fucked people’s understanding of what markets, competition, monopoly power, and so on are. Not people’s fault really. We live in this system, we observe and learn about it from what it claims about itself. We have to do extra work to have any different understanding. Most people don’t have extra time for unpaid work.
It explains a lot of commentary I see, framing it as “who the price setting is benefiting,” customer vs publisher vs dev, as if the storefront price fixing is a predestined thing already.
It’s not supposed to be that way.
But it makes sense if that’s all people see in big box chains, the App Store/Google Play, streaming services, Amazon, or wherever.
Yup. And platforms like Play/Amazon/etc. are even further away from markets than big box stores because people don’t all see the same items for sale to choose from, which is fundamental to the functioning of free markets.
BTW I’m not a fan of free markets, but for the limited set of economic use cases they serve well, at least they gotta function as such.
Bless you bruce, out here doing the lord’s work educating chucklehead Gaben simps on basic concepts like market power and anticompetitive practices that we somehow manage to apply to every tech monopoly except Valve
Anticompetitive to ensure everyone sells it at the same price?
Valve are not the only company to do it either, I know razer used to but I don’t work in a retail environment anymore to know if that is still the case.
I’m not in favor of these practices by Valve either. It seems like the group you’re describing are interpreting this as Valve wont let anyone rip off their customers so you can be sure you’re getting it at the best price there, rather than Valve wont let anyone change the narrative that you’re getting it at the best price there and should buy everything there.
Why is this any different than any other supplier/retail relationship? Hey you are giving a deal to another store, we want a better price. No? Okay then we won’t carry your product if you can give us a better price but don’t want to.
Explain to me why that’s a problem with Valve, and not every other business ever.
I’m assuming I’m not understanding something correctly and hoping you can explain what I’m missing
Valve is setting the shelf price. On the supplier’s own store.
To reiterate, what Valve said was “we don’t like that sticker price. Change it to match ours or we won’t carry your product.” It’s not Valve requesting “a better deal” on the supply end, it’s Valve demanding sticker price parity.
In any normal, competitive market, this would be ridiculous.
Either Valve would reduce their profit margin to match the other store’s price, or if they can’t, stop selling the good and part ways with the supplier. The game would be sold everywhere else, business as usual.
But Valve controls majority of the PC game market, hence this would be commercial suicide for Ubisoft. So they can’t.
They control the price of their supplier and all the competing storefronts.
…How is that not blatant monopolism?
And why would other companies doing that make it okay? It’s nothing close to a healthy market.
Yeah, that’s what they’re alleging. And if it turns out to be true, that’s fucked and hope they get punished for it.
However, in the article there’s two quotes and neither prove that’s what they’re doing.
The reason given was that the Steam price was “significantly higher than what was available at other retailers for the same version of the game.”
This sounds consistent with all the previous instances and with their rule of matching whatever low price others provide which is not about price fixing.
They agreed to valves terms when they listed their game. Then they aren’t following the deal, and Valve responds. I don’t see your problem. Valve takes 30%. If the game is less than they are selling it on steam else where and the deal was we will sell your game for you, but you can’t sell it cheaper elsewhere then that’s fair as I see it. “But Steam is Very good so we have to sell it there!” Is not a good argument if that’s being made
Do valve’s terms dictate they can delist your game if you sell it somewhere else for cheaper??
Even if it is, that’s fucking shitty to have in your terms lmao
As I understand it that’s the price everyone pays to use steam. Dont fucking use it if you dont like it. Why is this a problem? Because steam is too good is the only thing I’m hearing and that’s not steams fault. Everyone else has to do the same thing. Valve didn’t hide this. Also note that they didn’t in fact delist it. They merely considered it.
This is the same problem/argument I had when microtransactions in games started. Everyone jumped on board and now we have a gaming industry that because users can’t fucking say no they bitch and complain when they don’t get what they want.
Cry me a fucking river. Go sell your game everywhere else but Steam. Too fucking bad.
Also I have bought literally hundreds of games from other places, cheaper than steam. Many of them I needed steam to download the games…
Steam isnt doing anything wrong just because they are handsdown the goat of digital distribution. It’s about as anti competitive as Wayne Gretzky was at his best
The terms in question being anti competitive. Steam being very good is not an argument against them using there prominent position in the gaming sphere to do the same monopolistic shit Amazon did to enshitify shopping
“But Steam is Very good so we have to sell it there!” Is not a good argument if that’s being made.
That’s it!
That’s the argument!
It’s that Steam is so good that Ubisoft has no business choice but to accept Valve’s terms and sell it there.
It’s literally not viable to sell it cheaper on Ubisoft’s storefront, not to speak of every other gaming storefront in existence: Steam is more essential than all of them put together.
The pricing is not market driven.
If that’s not monopolistic, I don’t know what is, and if you still don’t see that I just don’t think we’re going to resolve this disagreement, because our perspectives are light years apart.
The second one with WB seems pretty reasonable as a business. If they’re gonna set the price at your store to be so much higher that nobody will buy it from you, why bother carrying it at all?
The one with Ubisoft, however, does not sound reasonable witthout knowing what, exactly, this starter pack was and how it worked. Was it a stand alone thing inside the game like some operators and skins, or was it something associated specifically with a Steam key that you are buying elsewhere? It sure does not sound like it would have a Steam key or have any specific connection to Steam except that it probably works for any version of the game, including if you have it on Steam, so it seems pretty sketch.
The problem is that Valve is even in that position in the first place.
A storefront with pricing terms a supplier can’t say no to, with no viable alternative, is anticompetitive. If it was a competitive market, Ubisoft would break the agreement and sell lower, with dynamic pricing on other stores.
Valve has every right to take action on their own terms, of course, but that’s not the issue.
valve is a game company, did so good at helping others sell their games that you people call them anticompetitive. That’s just fucking laughable and I will never understand why so many of you seem to miss that. They didn’t go out and give a different deal to anyone else. But Ubisoft broke the terms they agreed to because they wanted to use VALVES service to hawk their wares. Well they have to pay the Piper, and they don’t get to cry foul if they try to fuck over the hand that fed them.
You can’t succeed without Valve is a dumb argument.
Blizzard had no problem with battlenet until they pissed in their customers faces.
Good old games is alive and kicking
Humble bundle now has a storefront
Greenman games is doing just fine.
And if you don’t like it then just stop using it and do the hard work yourself but NOOO that’s too hard to have to figure out how to actually sell your product.
God I hope valve just shuts steam down some day and says fuck you to everyone who complains like this
It’s common for those “other stores” to just be the dev’s own store or a store which takes a smaller cut than Valve.
To me, anyways, it seems perfectly expected for a business to want to pass on Valve’s charges to the customer. Whether this is harmful depends on whether you focus on the player or developer, and whether the developer responds by making the game cheaper everywhere or more expensive everywhere.
I don’t know if this is the same policy, but one thing Valve doesn’t let you do is sell Steam codes for cheap on external platforms, because that evades their platform fee while still using Steam for distribution and makes it hard for the Steam listing to compete (since it’s more expensive).
That might not apply here because I feel like Ubisoft has their own distribution infrastructure on UPlay, but it could be that they were selling the Steam version on UPlay for cheaper.
You can link your Steam and UPlay accounts so I wouldn’t rule out something like this being the case here without knowing more about the circumstances.
I find the comments in these threads unbelievable.
If pretty much any company on earth threatened a supplier over a storefront they have nothing to do with, there would be outrage. That’s blatant anticompetitiveness. It means they have the power to set pricing like a dictator because their store alone is more important than the rest.
It’s a fact. A state of the matter. It is a textbook definition of monopolism in progress.
Yet Lemmy, and every gaming forum, turn out to defend Valve?
WTF.
I mean, I’m not ditching my Steam library. Valve does many things right. But I wouldn’t be caught dead defending the greedy monopolistic practices of… any corporation abusing such a situation.
I haven’t seen a single convincing argument to justify this specific policy from Valve, either.
There is no justification if what you describe is true. But a lot of people are willing to give Valve benefit of the doubt, assuming it is false until proven in court. Especially coming from Ubisoft of all places.
This is an older article. Ubisoft was (and is?) pulling some shady shit here though. What they’re doing:
So for a new player to get started, they’d get the base game for free, with Valve paying for all the costs related to the download infrastructure, etc…, and then pay Ubisoft directly for their ingame starter gear, bypassing Valve entirely. This was just an attempt by Ubisoft to skirt by Valve’s rules.
Valve is extremely lenient when it comes to this sort of stuff. But they’re not going to allow a publisher to abuse the system to essentially get free game distribution via Steam while still making a profit via this side channel. It’s basically a way to bypass the Steam key resell rule, where Steam keys may not be resold for lower prices on other platforms (but you don’t have to pay the 30% fee when you do).
To put Ubisoft’s case to the extreme, imagine a game comes out for free on Steam, but opening it opens up another storefront where you first need to pay 60 bucks to actually play the game. Does it make sense for Valve to continue offering their services here if they are blocked from making any money off of it?
The thing being described is exactly how Amazon fucked the market. If someone can understand why Amazon is bad (business-wise) then they can understand why Valve needs to be held accountable. Lest they become the Amazon of vidjagames
I think one reason is that given the stage in capitalism we’ve been living for some time now has completely fucked people’s understanding of what markets, competition, monopoly power, and so on are. Not people’s fault really. We live in this system, we observe and learn about it from what it claims about itself. We have to do extra work to have any different understanding. Most people don’t have extra time for unpaid work.
…That makes some sense.
It explains a lot of commentary I see, framing it as “who the price setting is benefiting,” customer vs publisher vs dev, as if the storefront price fixing is a predestined thing already.
It’s not supposed to be that way.
But it makes sense if that’s all people see in big box chains, the App Store/Google Play, streaming services, Amazon, or wherever.
Yup. And platforms like Play/Amazon/etc. are even further away from markets than big box stores because people don’t all see the same items for sale to choose from, which is fundamental to the functioning of free markets.
BTW I’m not a fan of free markets, but for the limited set of economic use cases they serve well, at least they gotta function as such.
Bless you bruce, out here doing the lord’s work educating chucklehead Gaben simps on basic concepts like market power and anticompetitive practices that we somehow manage to apply to every tech monopoly except Valve
Anticompetitive to ensure everyone sells it at the same price?
Valve are not the only company to do it either, I know razer used to but I don’t work in a retail environment anymore to know if that is still the case.
Yes, goddamnit! Haven’t you ever heard of “price-fixing?”
if you’ve had any personal experience with ubishit you’d know why
i’m not going to waste my limited time and energy caring about ubi
I’m not in favor of these practices by Valve either. It seems like the group you’re describing are interpreting this as Valve wont let anyone rip off their customers so you can be sure you’re getting it at the best price there, rather than Valve wont let anyone change the narrative that you’re getting it at the best price there and should buy everything there.
Why complicate it?
It’s simply “Valve is dictating prices on unrelated stores.”
That’s the fact. It’s a lot harder to get around that than contemplating motivations.
Why is this any different than any other supplier/retail relationship? Hey you are giving a deal to another store, we want a better price. No? Okay then we won’t carry your product if you can give us a better price but don’t want to.
Explain to me why that’s a problem with Valve, and not every other business ever.
I’m assuming I’m not understanding something correctly and hoping you can explain what I’m missing
Valve is setting the shelf price. On the supplier’s own store.
To reiterate, what Valve said was “we don’t like that sticker price. Change it to match ours or we won’t carry your product.” It’s not Valve requesting “a better deal” on the supply end, it’s Valve demanding sticker price parity.
In any normal, competitive market, this would be ridiculous.
Either Valve would reduce their profit margin to match the other store’s price, or if they can’t, stop selling the good and part ways with the supplier. The game would be sold everywhere else, business as usual.
But Valve controls majority of the PC game market, hence this would be commercial suicide for Ubisoft. So they can’t.
They control the price of their supplier and all the competing storefronts.
…How is that not blatant monopolism?
And why would other companies doing that make it okay? It’s nothing close to a healthy market.
Yeah, that’s what they’re alleging. And if it turns out to be true, that’s fucked and hope they get punished for it.
However, in the article there’s two quotes and neither prove that’s what they’re doing.
This sounds consistent with all the previous instances and with their rule of matching whatever low price others provide which is not about price fixing.
They agreed to valves terms when they listed their game. Then they aren’t following the deal, and Valve responds. I don’t see your problem. Valve takes 30%. If the game is less than they are selling it on steam else where and the deal was we will sell your game for you, but you can’t sell it cheaper elsewhere then that’s fair as I see it. “But Steam is Very good so we have to sell it there!” Is not a good argument if that’s being made
Do valve’s terms dictate they can delist your game if you sell it somewhere else for cheaper?? Even if it is, that’s fucking shitty to have in your terms lmao
As I understand it that’s the price everyone pays to use steam. Dont fucking use it if you dont like it. Why is this a problem? Because steam is too good is the only thing I’m hearing and that’s not steams fault. Everyone else has to do the same thing. Valve didn’t hide this. Also note that they didn’t in fact delist it. They merely considered it.
This is the same problem/argument I had when microtransactions in games started. Everyone jumped on board and now we have a gaming industry that because users can’t fucking say no they bitch and complain when they don’t get what they want.
Cry me a fucking river. Go sell your game everywhere else but Steam. Too fucking bad.
Also I have bought literally hundreds of games from other places, cheaper than steam. Many of them I needed steam to download the games…
Steam isnt doing anything wrong just because they are handsdown the goat of digital distribution. It’s about as anti competitive as Wayne Gretzky was at his best
The terms in question being anti competitive. Steam being very good is not an argument against them using there prominent position in the gaming sphere to do the same monopolistic shit Amazon did to enshitify shopping
That’s it!
That’s the argument!
It’s that Steam is so good that Ubisoft has no business choice but to accept Valve’s terms and sell it there.
It’s literally not viable to sell it cheaper on Ubisoft’s storefront, not to speak of every other gaming storefront in existence: Steam is more essential than all of them put together.
The pricing is not market driven.
If that’s not monopolistic, I don’t know what is, and if you still don’t see that I just don’t think we’re going to resolve this disagreement, because our perspectives are light years apart.
Then Ubisoft is a failed company if they can’t make a product that people want to buy. I have 0 empathy for them.
If by “products” you mean games, Ubisoft games are selling just fine on Steam.
It’s not a function of the product, in this case. But the storefront.
The second one with WB seems pretty reasonable as a business. If they’re gonna set the price at your store to be so much higher that nobody will buy it from you, why bother carrying it at all?
The one with Ubisoft, however, does not sound reasonable witthout knowing what, exactly, this starter pack was and how it worked. Was it a stand alone thing inside the game like some operators and skins, or was it something associated specifically with a Steam key that you are buying elsewhere? It sure does not sound like it would have a Steam key or have any specific connection to Steam except that it probably works for any version of the game, including if you have it on Steam, so it seems pretty sketch.
But if Ubisoft agreed to the terms then I don’t understand the problem with Valve taking action
The problem is that Valve is even in that position in the first place.
A storefront with pricing terms a supplier can’t say no to, with no viable alternative, is anticompetitive. If it was a competitive market, Ubisoft would break the agreement and sell lower, with dynamic pricing on other stores.
Valve has every right to take action on their own terms, of course, but that’s not the issue.
valve is a game company, did so good at helping others sell their games that you people call them anticompetitive. That’s just fucking laughable and I will never understand why so many of you seem to miss that. They didn’t go out and give a different deal to anyone else. But Ubisoft broke the terms they agreed to because they wanted to use VALVES service to hawk their wares. Well they have to pay the Piper, and they don’t get to cry foul if they try to fuck over the hand that fed them.
You can’t succeed without Valve is a dumb argument.
Blizzard had no problem with battlenet until they pissed in their customers faces.
Good old games is alive and kicking
Humble bundle now has a storefront
Greenman games is doing just fine.
And if you don’t like it then just stop using it and do the hard work yourself but NOOO that’s too hard to have to figure out how to actually sell your product.
God I hope valve just shuts steam down some day and says fuck you to everyone who complains like this
It’s common for those “other stores” to just be the dev’s own store or a store which takes a smaller cut than Valve.
To me, anyways, it seems perfectly expected for a business to want to pass on Valve’s charges to the customer. Whether this is harmful depends on whether you focus on the player or developer, and whether the developer responds by making the game cheaper everywhere or more expensive everywhere.
I don’t know if this is the same policy, but one thing Valve doesn’t let you do is sell Steam codes for cheap on external platforms, because that evades their platform fee while still using Steam for distribution and makes it hard for the Steam listing to compete (since it’s more expensive).
That might not apply here because I feel like Ubisoft has their own distribution infrastructure on UPlay, but it could be that they were selling the Steam version on UPlay for cheaper.
It is not.
Valve controlling Steam keys is perfectly reasonable. In fact they’re used to be pretty lenient with those.
Controlling independent storefronts is not. Which Uplay absolutely is.
You can link your Steam and UPlay accounts so I wouldn’t rule out something like this being the case here without knowing more about the circumstances.