I might switch to wayland when xfce starts to have decent support for it. I’m not a ride or die Xorg fan, I just want to keep using the DE I’m used to.
Yeah AFAIK the only two DEs that fully support Wayland are the big two - Gnome and KDE. and a few tiling window managers like Sway and Hyprland.
I look forward to a world where all modern DEs are fully supportive of Wayland like Cinnamon and Budgie and I know people love their xfce.
Yeah, i can’t explain why I love xfce so much. It’s very much like a windows 9x style desktop with some QOL improvements (press alt to click drag a window is such a great feature)
Same currently using xfce with opensuse (prob going back to Cachyos + Cinnamon)
to the unavoidable “it’s been 15 years” comments: 15-year-old x11 was a piece of shit. the difference is that we had no alternative so we had to put up with it
I’m glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.
You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don’t get 100 comments
I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
SystemD is really bloated tho
I’m not saying we should all be using runit, but with systemD making more and more services only work through their init system just creates more vendor lock in
Like, who needs a cronjob alternative that only works if you use SystemD, limiting your software to people using it and locking out everyone needing a less bloated init system like runit? And who needs a systemD calendar?
Depends what you mean by bloat. It has a very large repo, but it compiles into little commands with least privilege execution. A lot of those commands are specifically there so someone doesn’t have to pull in other repos with a larger attack surface. e.g. there is a time sync daemon to replace having to pull in ntp which is a lot more complex and fraught and the one thing most desktops need of NTP which is to set the clock.
Systemd won’t be done until they port libre office to it dammit!
Yeah. Over on
MoronixPhoronix, every article about Rust, systemd, Wayland or –to a lesser extent– GNOME is a troll fest.
Wayland is already ready and majority of linux desktop users are using it without issue.
As an average desktop user, I’ve run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
Yes it’s been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it’s not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That’s a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a “i want to screen cast” message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it’s a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
Thankfully I haven’t run into any problems with Nvidia drivers. My main rig is running a RTX 3080 with proprietary drivers and my side-project NixOS laptop uses a GTX 970m with nouveau drivers no problem.
It gets me curious about the possibility of specific GPU manufacturers having more of a problem than some. There has to be some discrepancy, because I do see that some users have issues right out the gate, with some being seasoned Linux vets. Whereas I’m mediocre at best and its all been plug and play for me.
I do like the idea of added security, as much as the permission popups annoy the hell out of me. The more Linux becomes popular, the more we’ll need extra security down the road. I hope we can simply whitelist packages at some point, though. Then things become less of a Wayland security issue and more of a user choice thing. If a user chooses a bad package to whitelist, then that’s on them at that point.
I don’t know the details, so it more than likely isn’t as easy as that, however.
until you start using it and screenrecords dont work, multimonitor setups work once and then fail forever… systemd,wayland, unity, ubuntuOne and all that stupid shit can right f off.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn’t give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this as a major security improvement - you can screen record but only if permission is granted.
maybe?! but from the votes here you can see that the wayland supporters can be nothing but shit people. and that is how nixos died. and this is how wayland is already dead.
nixos had a toxic insane community of ppl like this: other opionion = downvote. Or check mozilla…millions of request for improvement, but the idiots focus on telemetry, terrible guis and so on. Firefox is at 1% marketshare??
I have seen it too often by now. if criticism like that triggers the hardcore fans, you know you do not ever want to be part of that fan base.
furthermore, you are a disappointment.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service).
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Wow, someone needs to grow up. You laid into Wayland when screen recording doesn’t even go through Wayland. The app asks the WM to screen record via DBus. A more constructive response would have been “thanks I didn’t know that”, or perhaps “oh it’s a driver issue”, or “it’s an issue with that WM/ffmpeg/pipewire or whatever”, or anything else likely to be the underlying cause. But it’s not Wayland. Have you got that? Not Wayland. There is no need to be sore and immature about it.
I’ve never had a problem with multi monitor (knock on wood). I had to get around screen recording in the past, but I thought that was ironed out. I’ll check that out today.
The only hiccups I’ve run into so far is that the KDE color picker (the dedicated widget and the screenshot tool) is off by one shade. I grab #222222 and it gets #212121. I got around that by using Flameshot. And that’s more on KDE’s end afaik.
The other hiccup is constant alerts asking for input permissions when I use something like an autohotkey or autoclicker.
I’m not saying its perfect yet. I’m saying they’ve busted ass getting it to where it is in such a short amount of time. Its incredibly usable to me for how young Wayland is.
I am saying the devs are the assholes I will spit on at any con. From google search anyone can see plenty ppl have problems with multimonitor and more. the community is just toxic like the other fail-communities. E.g. systemd…equally wrong and crap. And I am sure a majority of former windows users will yeet their brain into the arena to say that it is wrong to critize systemd. if systemd would be good, the adoption rate would not have been overtaken by alpine linux. and so wayland, electron and all the other stupid ideas are dead on arrival while ppl will still use and defend them like they are paid by redhat.
How can I fix the multi monitor thing?? Whenever I connect my TV screen everything freezes unless I unplug one of my desktop monitors.
yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
Same. I booted up NixOS with Gnome around 5 months ago and it took a second for me to realize it was defaulting to Wayland. I was running it on an ancient Asus gaming laptop with nouveau drivers and the experience was overall smooth. Had it multi screened with my TV, too.
agreed, plenty of bug and issues with wayland in the past, but i can now comfortably use it for everything on amd/intel cards.
I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it’s worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.
“rough start” is putting it mildly. 🤭
I wish Nvidia agreed.
Yeah it’s at the point where i’m wondering if i still even need xorg. I’m still keeping it around just in case for now, but i could very easily purge it from my system anytime since i’m using nixos and all my xorg related settings are in a specific file. The main pet peeve i have with wayland is gaming related, and should hopefully improve when wine and proton go native wayland. I have a dual monitor setup and games always choose the wrong monitor by default, which means i can only use the resolution and refreshrate of the secondary monitor. I have a keybind to set the primary xwayland monitor with xrandr, which solves the problem, but it is a bit hacky. I also need to toggle vrr on and off with a keybind because it causes flickering on my monitor. It’s a bit annoying but atleast it works, on xorg you can’t even use vrr with multi monitor to begin with.
My biggest issue gaming under Wayland is the fact that certain games can’t capture the mouse when run full screen with multiple monitors. I’ve got a number of games that exhibit the issue, but the easiest way to experience it is to try and run CS2 as wayland native (so not under xwayland - As the performance overheads running xwayland are notable running CS2) - Within 10 mins you’ll be looking at the ground with the mouse pointer on your secondary monitor.
Furthermore, running gamescope doesn’t fix the problem - And yes, I’m running the correct commands under gamescope.
I mean - This is basic functionality that should be an integral part of any modern OS. Under X11 running the same dual matched monitors everything works perfectly with great FPS.
i deleted the x session files so they don’t show up in my greeter. They got annoying by now, for me. I used to shit on wayland, but it’s inching closer and closer to being usable. and i use an nvidia gtx 1080, so that’s saying something
Have you tried running your games with gamescope?
Edit: nevermind, I think gamescope doesn’t work with wayland
I think it does work, but from my understanding when nested inside another wayland session, thing like vrr don’t work, which brings me back to the xorg problem, but my current workaround works for me, so now it’s just a matter of hoping it will improve and become less tedious.
I have a shitload of bug/weird behavior with Wayland, I hope it gets better but for me it is not there yet.
Like what? (Curious)
Here is some of them (they are all intermitent) :
- Wrong sensitivity with the mouse
- wrong tiling of my windows with multiple screens, (like I do a full screen and the window will disapear or occupy half of the bottom of the screen for example.
- black screen after coming out of sleep
- some gtk applicatipn have random widgets not working (but some do in the same window/frame…)
- sometimes when I try to share my screen with a native wayland app it just goes to black (and sharing with an X app I have to select two times what I want to share on top of in the app)
- sometimes sub menus are just misplaced
- some of my appimages gets broken with wayland
- some x apps are blurry
I forget a lot, but it’s a lot of minor issues that piles up and gets frustrating
god i wish. half of my X11 apps don’t work, some that used to keep breaking out of nowhere.
Steam works through the XWayland compatibility layer
unless you use an environment that doesn’t support XWayland, like niri. xwayland-satellite used to be the easier route in that case but that seems to be broken now.
edit: wow i always thought people were being obtuse when complaining about “wAyLaNd sHiLLs” in their replies when criticizing Wayland. but now i’m not so sure.
if one goes out of their way to use a system without xwayland, that’s on them not Wayland lol
but i do have xwayland. please read my comment again.
“I set fire to my house damn why did my house burn down its the builders fault.”
xwayland-satellite is the recommended way to run X11 apps, which are unfortunately still many, on niri. is that “setting my house on fire”? really confused here.
at which part did they set the house on fire?
yeah really confused about that reply too. is using anything other than Gnome on Wayland “setting the house on fire”?
What issues do half of your X11 apps? Ive never had an issue with an X11 app running through Xwayland, although I also dont have many X11 apps left.
mostly windows going blank or straight up refusing to show
Issue is already closed though and might have more to do with xwayland itself it seems. Also fwiw, i just tested steam on niri with xwayland-satellite a few weeks ago and it worked just fine.
issue closed != issue resolved though. it worked “a few” weeks ago for me too, and now it doesn’t. other people in fedi and one in that issue have the same problem, so it’s not like i’m alone with some weird setup here.
also i should note, although i did that in the linked issue, that other xwayland compositors do work. they’re just way more janky for running X11 apps seamlessly. so i’m not convinced the issue is elsewhere. i just didn’t press the issue out of respect for the maintainer and the only productive thing to do at this point would be to submit a patch if i am indeed right.
Fair enough. I wasn’t aware you actually had that problem yourself, i thought you just looked it up to prove a point lol. I do think it’s a weird decision that niri doesn’t just have xwayland built-in. Even river has native xwayland support, which is much more focused on minimalism. I haven’t used niri all that much because so far haven’t really been able to get used to scrolling. I think i still prefer dynamic tilers with a layout system. I should probably try booting up a game in niri to see if i can replicate it.
honestly i kinda get their reasoning… it’s extra jank, extra complexity and a maintenance burden that shouldn’t be necessary if apps stopped dragging their feet about proper wayland support. niri instead focuses on the rest of the experience and honestly? they’re doing a pretty great job because it’s super fuckin comfy to use and customize, at least for me.
I dunno why but I can’t even log into KDE when I select wayland. The screen just turns black and unresponsive :(
Something similar happens to me on my desktop (debian 13) - it goes black then brings me back to the login screen. But in my case it’s probably the nvidia drivers (proprietary). Not certain, though. Still happy on X11 for the meantime.
I’m running Bazzite on KDE Wayland with the proprietary Nvidia drivers just fine. I think you’ve got another issue causing this.
That’s definitely possible. I’m not familiar with Bazzite. Did you get those drivers from Nvidia’s website? That’s my only issue with Debian 13 right now. Everything else is working as expected. Also the reason I had to get the drivers from the website is somehow I couldn’t enable some stuff (like amd-pstate) on the default Bookworm kernel and had to use a backported one (custom kernels don’t work with the drivers from apt).
I’d definitely recommend against using drivers downloaded from a website, on general principles.
custom kernels don’t work with the drivers from apt
Check if there’s a dkms version - I know that’s the way it’s set up on Arch, if using a non-standard kernel you install the kernel headers, and dkms lets you build just the module for your kernel.
Thank you for the tip. I will definitely look into this.
Edit: yeah, I wasn’t too happy with having to get the propriety drivers from nvidia myself.
I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but I do want to clarify - the drivers in the repository are still proprietary drivers from Nvidia, just tested and packaged by the distribution maintainers, dkms is just some magic that lets them work with arbitrary kernels with minimal compilation. Unless you’re using nouveau, which I don’t think is ready for most uses.
I understand that. What I meant was I was not happy with having to go out of my way to download other drivers. My apologies - I realized my previous comment was not very clear. Also, thank you for the dkms explanation. :)
I’ve been in linux for a short while already, but this is the first time I’ve used debian with an nvidia gpu. It’s…a bit different from what I’ve experienced with arch on my laptops (probably because they don’t have a discrete gpu).
No, they’re included with, and updated by, the OS. But they are the proprietary ones that are available on Nvidia’s website.
I’ll try again this weekend. But that’s the only thing I’ve changed before being unable to log in a wayland sessions. Hope it works though.
The gnome implementation that I’m forced to use is god damn awful. This whole eventbus implementation is so bad, it misses events and doesn’t always register key-up, when I’m switching workspaces. I do it a lot, and the key gets stuck spamming the same letter, because it didn’t register key up!! Hell sometimes it doesn’t register keydown, super annoying when writing passwords.
Random crashes of gnome happens more often than I would like to admit, and all that you’ve been working on is gone aswell. What a garbage design, why the fuck should the wm own the processes, I swear the wayland people live on a another planet.
And the whole permissions thing to ensure privacy, mf this is linux, stop making me do workarounds for shit that you won’t allow, because you haven’t implemented the correct support for it.
I’m running Ubuntu 24.04, thing fucking sucks, I’m forced by work. Dude x11, just worked, like Wayland solved anything at all.
hard disagree about the permissions. If I want to run closed source programs like games, discord, zoom or whatever, I like knowing they can’t log all my keys, take screenshots or even run their own version of windows recall without my explicit permission
hard disagree. if your software is missing baaic functions, you shut up about roles and permissions or even force that crap on others.
yeah. the thing with the stuck keys and crashes is not normal. I’ve never experienced it (though I wanted to restart the window manager once), but also I’m using KDE
and you know what? if you still need x11 for some things, log in on a 2nd TTY to another user with an x11 session. you can then switch the active TTY to use the other. Though I admit, I have no idea how the 2 users’ sound system work together
X11 absolutely didn’t just work, hence Wayland’s entire existence and rapid adoption once it was mature enough to function. Xorg’s decades old cobbled together code base of awkward fixes for obscure issues and random contributions that had to be repeatedly fixed in every other patch is infamous as an example of how not to do FOSS software over time, and serves as a fatal warning to all open source projects.
Wayland has issues, and those issues are being fixed. Slow updating distros, as always, suffer the most with new software and paradigms. But whining about it hardly helps. This is foss land, contribute or report, never complain.
I’ve been using Wayland for years and I have no idea of what you are talking about (regarding the key-up, key-down issue, but I also haven’t noticed any crash attributable to Wayland, specifically). Did the same computer you are using work with X11, and stopped working properly after an update? Could it be a hardware or driver issue? Also, has Canonical removed the X session from Ubuntu 24.04, or using Wayland is a company policy?
Using the latest Ubuntu lts is company policy if you want to use Linux. All support for x11 is removed from gnome, you can’t even change x11 anymore. I switch workspaces all the time, like web browser in one, dev env and terminal, so constantly switching, 50% of the time it will miss the key up event from your keyboard and it’s registering that you are holding the key down.
Gnome randomly crashes, for instance sometimes clicking on a link that someone sent you, just randomly crashes gnomes, happened yesterday. So all the processes you started via gnome is gone, you need to reopen all your tools again, happens at least 6 times a week.
Sometimes gdm doesn’t work, so you can’t login, you have to open another tty and reset gdm in the other session. It’s so bad, never had these issues before in x11, sure there were bugs, but not annoying bugs.
Driver issues or not, it’s annoying as fuck. Gnome developers (redhat or whoever sells support for gnome) implementing the display server, gg.
I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve been using GNOME+Wayland on a few distros, including Fedora, OpenSUSE, and Arch, on at least 3 different computers, and I also use workspaces and keyboard shortcuts extensively: I’ve never encountered such problems. I remember warching a video on YouTube, by The Linux Experiment, where he criticized the GNOME experience on tablets, just to discover later that it was an Ubuntu issue, and that other distros would work well: maybe this is the case, too? Or maybe your computer has one of those older NVIDIA GPUs, which are infamous for working bad in Wayland due to driver issues.
Sorry but pipewire is shit and it works with Wayland (didn’t see anything Wayland uses pulseaudio) and I believe Wayland still not ready for use, It’s unstable for me because pipewire crackling like fire
Get your shit together. You make no sense.
I make perfect sense to people who actually read what I said. PipeWire issues aren’t imaginary.
I understood you and had the same issue. I solved it by using an Apple USBC to mini jack audio device instead of onboard. Not ideal. Not sure if it’s still a problem though.
Edit. My mistake I had the problem with Pulse not Pipewire.
Pipewire works fine on my Intel 5960x, Intel N3700, Intel 9900k, Intel 9700, AMD 4800HS and even my Intel ES Erying system. No pops or crackles from any inputs or outputs.
I’ve not tried with a dedicated sound card, just the onboard on all these systems.
Running KDE on one system along with Hyprland on another two with the remainder as headless systems.
You sure this issue isn’t somehow related to your hardware or something else?
No, pulseaudio working fine but pipewire isn’t, it’s a spare old PC HP COMPAQ 6005 pro SFF with AMD Phenom II X4 B97 ram 8GB ddr3 and its sound card SBx00 AZALIA Intel HDA Pipewire crackling while pulseaudio working without problems
Unsure if the issue is fixed upstream in the kernel however there are a few topics going in depth about this issue with some reported fixes / workarounds.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/3182
https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/crackling-microphone/22173
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/1569#note_1102615
Good luck with the issue, hopefully one of these links fixes that problem for you 🍻
