This is so stupid, I should probably just walk away, but I think I’ve been permabanned, so it’s worth a try.
The context is a thread titled “Israeli minister says Israel has created and owns the European far right parties”. It consists of a screenshot of a tweet auto-translated from french about an Israeli minister talking about building a network of relationships with European far right parties.
-
Which mod was PTB: @MysticMushroom1776@lemmy.dbzer0.com
-
What sanction was imposed: comments removed (whatever), ban from the community !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
-
Screenshot of the modlog entry, attached.
-
The context of the posts that were originally removed is basically:
- a factual post that OP’s title does not follow from the content. The tweet talks about Israel helping build the European far right alliance, not “creating” and “owning” the European far right.
- In response to another user pushing back, I think we got a bit of a misunderstanding with the meaning of the word “conspiracy”, with me taking the word literally and arguing that the framing of “conspiracy” is basically an antisemitic trope harkening to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There is a bit of (I think respectful) back and forth, which I think basically would have been resolved in a couple more turns.
- The mod intervenes and removes my posts without banning me yet. The mod accuses me of “dismissing anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiracies”, “parroting pro-Zionist rhetoric” and “apologia” and “accusations of antisemitism”.
- I respond to the mod, underneath and that gets me banned. I don’t seem to have access to the post that triggered the ban, it does not appear in the modlog, but after the mod removed a 3 posts with the accusation of trolling, bad faith, zionist apologia and zionist rhetoric, I basically said “you misunderstood me, but I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith and I was trying to say that we don’t need employ harmful antisemitic tropes in antizionist rhetoric”. I guess the most offensive thing I said was the pigeon-playing-chess, thing.
- That gets me banned as a “bad faith zionist troll”, with a nice little final message “Sayonara you worthless Zionist apologist.” Power tripping much?
- Why I think that’s unfair, and what I would ask as remedy:
Read my freaking posts. I am not doing zionist apologia. I’m not pushing zionist rhetoric. I am not trolling, and I’m engaging in good faith. I’m repeatedly referring to Israel as the “genocidal Israeli apartheid regime”.
What I am doing is pointing out that the conspiratorial framing is unnecessary and harmful. I am not conflating antizionism with antisemitism, I quite specifically say so. What I am saying is that “there exist antisemitic ways of doing antizionist politics”, which, I don’t know man, I think it’s …pretty obvious? My strongest claim is in the longer of my removed comments:
it is possible to do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-Semitic way. Let’s not fucking do that. Let’s instead do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way.
This is basic shit, no? In what fucking way is saying “let’s do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way” even remotely “zionist apologia”?! I mean, come on.
In terms of the substance of my disagreement in the discussion that was interrupted, I honestly think that it was a misunderstanding about the word “conspiracy” that would have been resolved in a couple of turns. In my view, the Israeli regime is publicly organizing the European fascists, so there is no “conspiracy”, it’s literally in the open. The conspiratorial framing only hurts the antizionist attack, because of its antisemitic roots. Before the mod intervened to gut the discussion, I was trying to clarify the language of “conspiracy” with the other user.
To summarize: I think the mod jumped the gun, being triggered by the word “antisemitism”. Yes, the Israeli propaganda machine uses the accusation of antisemitism as chaff, but that doesn’t mean we need to turn off our own critical thinking. We can freaking do better than give actual pro-Israeli apologists hooks to accuse the antizionist movement of antisemitism.
As a remedy, just lift the ban, for fuck’s sake.
EDIT: I’m unsure how the notifications work, but for full transparency, I have just sent the mod this DM, to let zir know that I started this thread:
If it is bad etiquette to send such a heads up via DM, I apologize and take responsibility.
I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith
Name-calling is not ‘good faith’.
Are you referring to the “chess with a pigeon” phrase?
Shroom is becoming kinda notorious for power trips like these, it’s not the first nor second nor third time this happens. At this point, communities they moderate should be just be avoided
I saw that earlier. Thought it was super weird you got banned for what posting what was clearly criticism of Isreal. Looks like the mod has a hair trigger for any individual sentence that isn’t 100% “death to zionists.”
They kept conflating Israel with Judaism. If we agree that Israel do not represent Judaism and jews then it can’t be an antisemitic trope to even falsely accusing Israel of doing something. It is true the title was not accurate which is wrong thing to do but you don’t have to accuse people of using antisemitic tropes . I speaks french so the tweet do not talk about Israel creating the far right movement but they talk about creating a network of far right movement which is proved by the fact Usa and Israel support for Argentina , El Salvador , Colombia and also all Europe far right governments clearly support israel unconditionally
You fundamentally misunderstand the problem of conflation between Israel and Judaism.
A subgroup that pretends to speak for all members of the supergroup can still be subjected to bigotry targeted to the supergroup even if they don’t represent everyone.
Example: The Chinese Communist Party claims there is only one China and that it speaks for it. The Taiwanese government disputes this. Ethnic Chinese people also exist in a very large diaspora all around the world. So we can say that the CCP does not represent all of Chinese civilization. Imagine if Joe Schmoe writes a text attacking the CCPs human rights record and in that text they use sinophobic stereotypes (that eg Chinese people are slavish). The fact that the CCP does not represent all Chinese people should not mean that we cannot criticize Joe Schmoe for using sinophobic language to make a valid point about human rights. In fact, Schmoe’s use or these racist slurs weakens the argument, strengthens anti-chinese rhetoric that hurts Chinese people regardless of their attachment to the CCP, and gives CCP propagandists an easy way to say that Schmoe doesn’t really care about human rights and just has an axe to grind against all Chinese people.
The mistake you’re making is the same as if you’re categorically denying that sinophobic tropes can even matter when discussing the CCP because it should not be conflated with all Chinese people and in the past the CCP has itself used this conflation as a shield.
If group X do not represent group Y then trope against X is tropes against X not Y regardless if there is intersection between the two groups.
Netenyahu loves people like you. Israel does what jews was accused for wrongly then will tell you , you are antisemitic or using antisemitic tropes .You can say that the title of the article was not accurate or that the word control is the wrong word and that we should use influence instead without accusing people of using antisemitic tropes .
By this logic, using an anti-black racial trope for the Crips is fine because the Crips don’t represent Black people.
You are dead wrong.
If you make a false claim about crips without believing they represent black then you lied about the crips not the black people. I don’t understand how you don’t understand that simple logic. Netanyahu is talking like you he always say how facts about Israel war crimes and terrorism are antisemitic tropes, they are not . Jews as an ethnoreligious group was accused of putting influence on politicians to get what they want , it is a trope because it was never factual, israel lobby getting what they want by influencing politicians and media corporate is factual.
You really don’t get it, do you?
Write a sentence that uses a nasty racist trope but direct it to the Crips as opposed to all black people.
Write “the Crips are XYZ” and make XYZ some nasty nasty racist shit.
Go ahead, write it. Don’t post it, for fuck’s sake, nobody needs to see that shit. Then cover it with your hand, wait 10 seconds and re-read it.
Are you feeling embarrassed? If not, I honestly don’t know what else to tell you.
You should be embarrassed to repeat Netanyahu rhetoric bullshit.
Write “the Crips are XYZ” and make XYZ some nasty nasty racist shit.
I never advocated to say racist shit.
The far-right in Europe would indeed exist without outside help; Russia, Israel, and the U.S. have merely been financing it to support its growth as a means of destabilizing their governments and the EU. Far-right politicians are also then more likely to adopt policies favoring the sources of their funding.
Given that your comments clearly demonstrate that you’re not a zionist, I think this is just another case of the flotilla’s zionist alarm being a bit too sensitive.
Yeah, the far-right parties would exist without outside influence, but they would not be currently be as large as a threat to democracy and standing together as a united europe without the meddling of outsiders. These powers fear what would happen if europe would put their differences aside and work together for real - because Europe would become a powerhouse that would probably look a lot like the supremacy they projected during colonial times. The amount of freedom Europe offers is a direct threat to any autocratic government.
Agreed; Russia doesn’t want Europe to be a united front against its irredentist ambitions, while the U.S. doesn’t want Europe to be united independent of it. Both would rather see it divided and are funding efforts to that end.
PTB, I don’t see how see how your comments can be described as ‘Zionist apologia’.
deleted by creator
You’ve linked a comment by someone else?
Edit: They (OP and the person you linked to) also don’t have their pronouns anywhere, so I don’t know why you’re assuming he/him.
My bad I though it was the OP. Sorry for that
Ah, Fantastical Fungi, at it again.
So very surprised.
Yeah, not the first time ze popped up here. Drama loves zir.
s/he/ze/g s/him/zir/g
You can assess ze loves to induce drama without disrespect zir pronouns.I am extremely aware the German ref.
damn i forgot again, sorry, fixed. no disrespect meant.
Edit: Neopronouns seem to be surprisingly hard for me - especially when my mind replaces the respective user with “der Moderator” in german.
Auf Deutsche: “sie Moderator”
I fully agree with your stance. There is for sure large scale interference by various right-wing governments in europe, propping up the fascist parties in various countries and supplying them with money and propaganda. Obvious offenders are Israel, USA, Russia and to a lesser degree China, and i am sure there are more players out there.
Being antizionist does not have anything to do with antisemitism unless there is an amount of stupidity involved. Israel is playing this pretty well - since Judaism, Jews and Israel are a tight-knit unit, it’s hard for some people to separate Zionism from the bunch. That’s for example the issue hampering the reaction of the german government, that feels that they will get burnt regardless of the move they make if they take a stand against Zionism.
Why that Mod wasn’t able to follow your chain of thought is something i cannot understand. The only reasoning that makes the mod just human is that ze misread what you meant; every other reasoning makes zir look… pretty bad.
PTB for sure if your ban isn’t lifted.
The mod uses ze/zir pronouns, let’s respect that.
already fixed that before you replied, just saw it after looking over the post in case i missed something, which i did lol (finally saw it when skimming over the PM OP sent to MysticMushroom)
Great!
They could simply talked about how the framing was innacurate instead of accusing people of using antisemetic tropes.
As i replied to you before, the strong binding between Judaism, Jewish genealogy and Israel makes it very hard to not trip anyones “antisemitism” detector when accusing Israel of fucking with european politics.
There is no strong bidding, it is bullshit. like explained in my other comment.
When one group encompasses all of the country which is “the land of the jews”, then - regardless of outliers - this is a very strong semantic binding.
If you have a subgroup consisting of 95% of all available individuals of a group, you cannot make the remaining 5% the defining population.
If the article was about Iran, would you be as critical of the headline and saying it’s islamaphobia?
There is by far no such strong binding between Islam and the Iranian populace that i would be able to make that claim. There are many Islamic countries, and while many of them are lagging behind in acknowledging and protecting human rights, they are a very heterogenous group. The headline would then focus on the country of “whatever islamic country”, and not towards “Muslims in general”. There is only ONE jewish country that also claims to be the home and cradle of all jews.
So when you read Israel, you read “Jews in general”. That’s verbatim for “any critic towards Israel is antisemitism”. It’s zionist propoganda, it forces everyone to walk on eggshells around them.
Israel isn’t anything more than an apartheid country and the cradle of genocide. They don’t represent the global Jewish community. A highly likely accusation when it has nothing to do with their nations main faith isn’t antisemitism. No one except you is saying this is a “Jewish conspiracy”.
It is not the land of jews , no group of people can claim eternal right to a region because humanity started in a single location then human was regularly moving from places to places. It is the land of the citizens that lives in a region, Israelis has the right to Israel including Muslims Israelis , Palestinians has the right to Palestine . It is with the bullshit of the land of jews that Israel never ceased to steal more land and ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
I agree! But that sadly doesn’t change how the Zionist twisted history and the minds of a large majority of Jews. Palestinians deserve their own state, just like the Kurds deserve their own state. Both are getting fucked over by stronger powers - Zionists on the one side, Turks on the other. There are a lot of people out there (Roma/Sinti in Europe, or natives in the US and Australia, or groups like the Uighurs in China) that deserve their own spot, but the established powers would rather cut off their right hand than give them an inch.
And the same principle is applied internally - the Zionists start with propagandizing the jewish population, and the minority that does not accept the program are ostracized and brutalized as a lesson to anyone who would dare to defy them.
That is what i mean with “you cannot cleanly separate Zionism/Judaism/Jews from one another”. Zionism propagandizes Jews to believe in Zionism, and they are all bound by the same religion that is weaponized against the populace to make sure they support the Zionists. Anyone who doesn’t go with the program gets fucked over until they cannot put up resistance anymore. Ergo: Whatever the Zionists say Judaism and being a Jew is, is reality for the vast majority of Jews.
The reason antisemetic tropes are antisemetic are because they are not based on reality or any evidence. Israel and israel lobbies is doing everything they are accused of. all YDI
That’s a weird/wrong definition of antisemitism. All bigotry clings to some kernel of truth, but takes it out of context, blows it out of proportion and weaponizes it. For example the Islamophobic trope of the fanatic zealot suicide bomber, does use extreme real world true occurrences (eg the 9-11 attackers) as a factual basis and applies it to a billion Muslims as if it were the norm. It is obviously true that Muslims as a group are not crazy suicidal zealots; it is also obviously true that suicidal Muslim zealots do exist (eg the 9-11 attackers). One should counter bigoted attacks on Muslims without denying historical fact and vice versa. Being able to make these distinctions is a matter of basic critical thinking.
Antisemitism is hostility, prejudice, or discrimination directed against Jewish people as a religious, ethnic, or cultural group. Here we are talking about Israel not jews. There are even Israeli Muslims who are hostile to Palestinians and agree with Netanyahu . So your analogy about islamophobia is wrong . Like I said what jews as a whole was accused of was antisemetic tropes are antisemetic are because they are not based on reality or any evidence. Israel doing false flag is verified , Israel using their lobbies to influence western politicians and western media is factual.
I’m not making an analogy, I’m trying to explain that your definition of bigotry such as antisemism requiring a lack of basis on reality or evidence is wrong.
Yes it does.
Racism doesn’t require rationality. Think about all those dumbass white trash hillbillies who literally think black people aren’t human, or that Jews are literal money goblins or something as fucked up.
Yes racism do not require rationally that’s why racists people are falsely accusing all blacks and jews to be murderous dangerous people .
It’s not so easy as you frame it. There is no other country on earth that has a population that is defined by a homogeneous religion - the binding between religion and genealogy is much stronger than anywhere else. That also has an effect on how Israel is perceived: there is a very strong correlation between Jews and Judaism, and both of them strongly correlate with Zionism. You cannot cleanly separate Religion, Genealogy and State identity in this case (and that is intended, so you can frame aggression against Zionism as antisemitism), you can only acknowledge that some Jews do not want to engage with Zionism.
This is bullshit. Since the invention of Zionism there was already jews who opposed the ideology so no there is no strong correlation betwen both . Zionists leaders literally intentionally killed jews before the creation of the illegitimate state of Israel. They assassinated an antizionist jew called Israel de haan, during the bombing of king David hotel 17 jews was killed , they sabotaged the French ocean liner SS Patria in the port of Haifa. killing 267 jews on it they did multiple false flags to push many jews to move from arab world to the new state which i do not mean by it that Arab leaders did not expulse many jews with no Zionist interference in response to the Nekba. Claiming that Zionism strongly correlate with Jewishness is like claiming isis strongly correlate with Islam. Even today you keep seeing anti zionism jews within israel getting beaten by the police , you see black jews being discriminated .
I do not agree that this is bullshit, because you underscore what i said. The Zionists nowadays are the jewish establishment, and it punishes and eliminates whoever isn’t with them. For the people living in Israel, the Zionists are the authority regarding what it means to be Jewish, increasing the semantic conflation of jew/judaism/zionist.
As everywhere, there are people who are thinking for themselves, but they are the minority inside of Israel, and they pay for it.
The Zionists nowadays are an establishment pretending to represent all jews . There is strong correlation between Israel and Judaism
They are not pretending. They ARE the defining majority of the jewish population in Israel. Don’t fall victim to the “no true scotsman”-fallacy mate.
I don’t feel like reading everything, but this part feels worth pointing out
I think we got a bit of a misunderstanding with the meaning of the word “conspiracy”, with me taking the word literally and arguing that the framing of “conspiracy” is basically an antisemitic trope harkening to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Do you really think there’s not literal conspiring going on, or are you using the word “literally” figuratively?
Not OP, but their point is that there is an open to influence (by Israel) that is being framed in the article as an antisemetic stereotype (Jews run the world conspiracy) in the article.
They seem to mean ‘literal’ conspiracy between the zionists and the European far right as in a secret coordinated effort. That doesn’t describe the actions in the article which are closer to influencing.
