The DPRK is a socialist country, the economy is overwhelmingly publicly owned and the state is run by the working classes. The idea that the DPRK is an “authoritarian shithole” based on unverified western allegations doesn’t hold any water; the west committed genocide against Koreans and bombed their country into oblivion, then proceeded to sanction them for decades. Western atrocity propaganda helps foment discontent against the DPRK and reduce the chances of reunification, which would be devastating for the US’ encirclement of China.
There is no class-based system regarding political loyalty. To begin with, class is a relation to the means of production and distribution, not a category of loyalty. The DPRK has an overwhelmingly publicly owned economy, and the working classes control the state. There is no “king” of the DPRK, no matter what fanfiction you write about it.
I mean, inheritance means that a family member takes over when the current ruler dies, and rules for the rest of their life (or until they abdicate).
That has happened twice in NK, and it’ll likely happen a third time, right?
The Bush Jr/Bush Sr thing is pretty messed up, but since neither sat for a lifetime, and Jr didn’t take over from Sr, I wouldn’t call it inheritance. Bad, but not inheritance.
I’m not an expert on DPRK history, so instead I’ll try and speak to the prominence of the Kims:
Think back to the enormous popularity the Kennedy family enjoyed in the US for decades. For a good thirty years, if you had a guy named Kennedy on your ticket, he was gonna win. Even Capcom, as recently as 2004, named their heroic American protagonist Leon S Kennedy, because the association of “Kennedy” with “Heroic/good/representative of America’s better angels” was strong in pop culture. It’s an incorrect association, but what matters is it existed.
But what did John, the one people remember most fondly, actually do to earn his reputation? Give a couple well-received speeches, have sex with a trafficked actress, propose a drawdown in Vietnam that never happened, and then get his shit blown smoove off? That’s not much of a legacy when you put it on paper, but here in America our standards are very low. with that in mind, let’s imagine a different history:
The Nazis win WW2. Doesn’t matter how, they just do. After cannibalizing Europe to rebuild their military, they cross the Atlantic with a massive fleet and start systematically dismantling the United Stated via carpet bombing. First electricity goes, then water, then food as every farm, dam and railway is destroyed. After all the infrastructure is gone they start leveling apartment blocks and houses, and entire towns are wiped off the map with few survivors every night. The bombers never stop coming, hitting even ruins where people might be hiding, scouring nearby forests with incendiaries, and allegedly (though I believe it) dropping viral and bacterial weapons with knowledge given to them by Japanese war criminals. Somewhere between one fifth and one quarter of the population is dead, starvation and disease are rampant, every single building has been leveled, and the traumatized survivors are hiding in caves. At this moment John F Kennedy shows up, leads the military in pushing the Nazis out of the northern states with help from Canada, and organizes the rebuilding of the liberated area. When the Nazis consolidate their hold on the southern states and create a military puppet government there to serve as a foothold for invasion, he oversees preparations to drive them back again. Obviously he becomes an instant folk hero, and his descendants both enjoy great political goodwill by association and experience great pressure to live up to the accomplishments of their fathers. //End hypothetical
In the US, a place that has not been touched by war in living memory, we very easily fall into the trap of thinking of other peoples as somehow sillier and more emotional, or more prone to irrational thinking. This is the message that our corporate media has always given us, through careful implication, picture choice, orientalist framing. The unspoken message is always: look at the latest inscrutable conflict these primitives have gotten themselves embroiled in now, aren’t you glad to live somewhere civilized where rule of law prevails?
Of course, the truth is that we export our instability: more than that, our stability depends on constantly destabilizing others and collapsing entire societies into nightmares from which can be easily siphoned cheap labor and resources. These aren’t random conflicts: almost always, they’re our conflicts, our proxy wars, our coups and propaganda drives. “Our” prosperity (mostly the prosperity of the capitalist class, but we do still get the crumbs) is inextricable from their suffering, it depends on it. If other societies are able to stand up for themselves, they can’t be threatened into extortionate “free trade” deals that let western corpos make an insane markup on some tv assembled with rare earth minerals from Vassal Country A by wage slaves in Vassal Country B. That sounds random but it has to be stressed that almost every supply chain for everything in the entire “first world” is built on that relationship, all the profitability of western companies is built on that relationship, and they have before and will again kill untold millions if that relationship is ever threatened.
To tie it all together, my thesis about the apparent popularity of the Kim family (and I say apparent because I can’t know for sure from outside the DPRK either way, but haven’t seen any signs of internal struggles, which you know our western press would pounce on) is this:
-The US and it’s co-belligerents visit an untold amount of conflict and misery on the global south as a matter of course
-Those who stand up to them are remembered fondly by their society, especially if they succeed, especially if they succeed and survive to old age
-Those who stand up are demonized in the western press, especially if they succeed, especially if they succeed and survive to old age
-The people we in the US are conditioned to view as lesser are if anything much more level headed on average than we are, and if the armageddon we made over there happened to us over here the result would probably look less like a socialist republic and more like a loose confederation of death cults
-With this in mind, and knowing that they aren’t actually central to the government of the country, I cannot possibly begrudge Korean society and the Korean state their affinity for the Kim family as a national symbol
They are not, but you seem unable to grasp this with your mental gymnastics.
How so? I am genuinely interested to be proven wrong, I’m just not seeing it. They’ve held dynastic control as general secretaries of the WPK have they not?
Just like you did with the Ukrainian Nazi symbol. Which you defended!
I have no interest in defending any Nazis, Ukrainian or otherwise. I just thought that post made a weak argument at a time when we need to be strong against the fascist uprising, and not look like we’re seeing SS symbols where they aren’t there. I’m happy to discuss that further.
How so? I am genuinely interested to be proven wrong, I’m just not seeing it. They’ve held dynastic control as general secretaries of the WPK have they not?
Cowbee has provided enough information to you for you to realize this, but you still ignore or twist it all in your fucked liberal mind.
and not look like we’re seeing SS symbols where they aren’t there. I’m happy to discuss that further.
See? You still deny the SS symbol. You even went like “that resembles the SS symbol” last time. Go back to reddit.
As I understand it after the dissolution of the position of President, Kim Jong il and Kim Jong Un have held positions that are while important certainly not central such as General Secretary of the WPK. The Standing Committee of the Supreme People’s Assembly is the central state power and it’s members are elected by the Supreme People’s Assembly who are in turn elected through direct nationwide blind ballot.
The comparison I’m about to make isn’t 100% accurate but it’s close enough to make the point I hope. The British royal family theoretically due to their position swears in the pm and leads the country etc etc, whereas in reality it’s the parliament that is the actual central political power. The Kim family is habitually elected high positions like general secretary due to the legacy they hold but in reality most of their time is spent on more ceremonial work like inspecting new developments etc while the Supreme People’s Assembly is the actual central state power. Another similar analogy is the president of Ireland as I understand it signs the laws and swears in politicians but is generally a ceremonial role this analogy is probably more accurate as like the Kim’s it is an elected position however the general point remains.
Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, and Kim Jong Un have all held largely different positions. All have had high levels in the WPK and sometimes government, but each was elected into their positions. The Kim family has outsized influence due to being seen as heroic figures, this is not a “dynasty” but normal electoral politics surrounding popular figures.
Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, and Kim Jong Un have all held largely different positions.
If we consider the title “Supreme Leader” to be understood as supreme leader of NK, they have all held that position, and only they have held that position. I know it’s been posthumous for the first two Kims, but it’s at least indicative. Has there been periods where the Kims have not had de facto power?
this is not a “dynasty” but normal electoral politics surrounding popular figures.
Hmm, normal? Are there many other examples of apparent inheritance of supreme leader titles for generations in electoral politics?
Sure, I just can’t come up with other places that has seen the same kind of elected dynasty, so I was hoping by “normal” you meant there were plenty of examples.
“Supreme Leader” is more of an honorific title, hence the posthumous designations.
I see. So the Kims have not been de facto leaders of DPRK for three generations?
There are plenty of other examples of family members of former leaders being elected. Happens all the time, but “dynasty” is only used against the DPRK. As far as being “de facto leaders,” they have held political power but not power over the entire system. The DPRK has a more distributed system of governance.
You have to be pretty ignorant to make this statement. The allegations are verifiable: leaked video of concentration camps, escapee testimony, human rights groups reports of famine and so on. DPRK is in fact, an authoritarian shithole.
To the contrary, you have to entirely ignore the role of western propaganda to credibly believe everything the west says about a country they committed genocide against, and disbelieve everything said country has said about itself.
There are no “concentration camps.” The DPRK has prisons, sure, as do all countries.
Defector testemony is notoriously unreliable. Defectors are discriminated against in the workplace, and as such most turn to spinning tall tales to make a living. Speaking positively about the DPRK is illegal in the ROK and is punishable, as is returning to the DPRK, despite a good number of defectors wishing to return to their homeland.
“Human rights groups” are often heavily western influenced, and as such western biases plague reporting. Famine did exist during the 90s and early 2000s when the USSR dissolved and massive flooding ruined farming for years in the DPRK. These days, however, food is far more stable, and rural areas are seeing priority in development through the 20x10 policy.
You don’t really have a leg to stand on here, you are trusting the empire that committed genocide against Korea to be truthful about Korea.
Trolling? I’m a communist, what I say is consistent with what Marxist-Leninists believe to be true. Again, citing Amnesty USA as evidence against the DPRK is ridiculous chauvanism. Would you exclusively cite Israeli sources on Palestine?
Regarding famine in particular, the overwhelming consensus is that it was driven by genocidal destruction of agriculture by the US Empire, the dissolution of their largest trading partner, and mass flooding in the 90s, which is why their food security is getting better.
The DPRK has prisons. Allegations that it has “concentration camps” are projection at best. Same with “human rights abuses.”
No idea what you’re getting at regarding the 1930s Soviet famine.
Either way, “democratic socialism” is just social democracy without self awareness. Reform is a dead end, revolution is necessary, and socialism is already democratic.
You don’t even begin to understand the horrors of the last few centuries. If you did you’d realize why Europe/The West in general lies so much and basically accuses every socialist/anti-Us country of doing cartoonishly evil things because it’s the only way Americans see a government operate; not only that but most Americans believe whatever the state department tells them about any country even though they KNOW the US lies about them.
It’s always “yeah, I know the US is bad, but I just KNOW this unprovable slop about China and the Middle East is true this time! They really did kill a bajillion protesters so we have to be involved, US has a responsibility to promote its democratic values!!!” Completely dropping the criticism they claimed before.
Most of us were you before we read some theory. If you want to understand us, the most approachable introduction would be watching a lecture by Michael Parenti on youtube or your preferred alternative, and/or reading Blackshirts and reds
How do you not get it? If reform is impossible, then democratic socialism is in practice just welfare imperialism. My “true colors” have been open for years, I’m a communist. And for what it’s worth, Marxism-Leninism is rising.
Half of the links are dead the other half are videos of satellite images that proves absolute nothing, they’re same people who made claims about concentration camps in China using satellite image and later people took photos of the places and they were just normal schools or normal prisons.
There are random ass tourists on youtube going there and you can see the Uyghur language everywhere in signs and even hear it in the background as random people speak it. Many random liberals even asked people about this and they were told it’s a lie. Literally just watch random people who go there, and less imperialist propaganda.
So there’s no concentration camps in Xinjiang either, eh?
There aren’t, how about you focus on the concentration camps and genocide your country is actively participating in?
You are also free to try posting proof again, considering your first and only link you cited 3 times only has dead links. Just post any, I know you can do it! All this proof everywhere, just so much proof!
How could you possibly know there aren’t? You don’t believe that they have concentration camps… just like US citizens don’t believe they have concentration camps.
In reality, odds are very, very good that they both have concentration camps. There’s no way that you can know otherwise.
Great strawman of what others are saying very impressive.
You’re replying in support of this workers paradise, are you not?
Not at this moment no. What I’m responding in favour of is people who make claims providing evidence instead of telling others to provide evidence to prove a negative. You’re making the claim the DPRK is a shithole you have to provide the evidence that proves that (and ideally can survive some scrutiny of backing, bias etc.)
The DPRK is an authoritarian shithole. Why are you so offended by this statement?
I’m not particularly other then the fact that the people from the DPRK I met during my time in college were always so nice and proud of how far they’ve come as a nation and seeing you disparage that and generally be kind of an asshole is distasteful.
Why are you so offended and so protective of your liberal delusion?
Your country is the one with the highest prisoner per capita and repeated suppression of any political dissidents. Your country has killed millions in the past 100 years through wars, sanctions and genocide. I don’t give one fuck about Amerikans who are especially so racist, chauvinistic and filled with reprehensible bloodlust towards anyone outside their imperial core.
Your country is broken and the population there is completely unheard and suffering and you project all of your issues onto another country because you can’t bear to stand knowing that, YES! Your country is in fact this uniquely bad and horrible, not everyone is inherently just as bad or worse by some fantasy logic cooked up by crazy liberals.
The DPRK is a socialist country, the economy is overwhelmingly publicly owned and the state is run by the working classes. The idea that the DPRK is an “authoritarian shithole” based on unverified western allegations doesn’t hold any water; the west committed genocide against Koreans and bombed their country into oblivion, then proceeded to sanction them for decades. Western atrocity propaganda helps foment discontent against the DPRK and reduce the chances of reunification, which would be devastating for the US’ encirclement of China.
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There is no class-based system regarding political loyalty. To begin with, class is a relation to the means of production and distribution, not a category of loyalty. The DPRK has an overwhelmingly publicly owned economy, and the working classes control the state. There is no “king” of the DPRK, no matter what fanfiction you write about it.
He’s the king in my heart though
Isn’t leadership inherited? Aren’t they on the third guy from the same dynasty now?
No, all positions are elected. That’s like saying Bush Jr. inherited his position from Bush Sr.
I mean, inheritance means that a family member takes over when the current ruler dies, and rules for the rest of their life (or until they abdicate).
That has happened twice in NK, and it’ll likely happen a third time, right?
The Bush Jr/Bush Sr thing is pretty messed up, but since neither sat for a lifetime, and Jr didn’t take over from Sr, I wouldn’t call it inheritance. Bad, but not inheritance.
Stealing from @RiverRock@lemmy.ml
https://lemmy.ml/post/50962606/27092779
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They are not, but you seem unable to grasp this with your mental gymnastics. Just like you did with the Ukrainian Nazi symbol. Which you defended!
How so? I am genuinely interested to be proven wrong, I’m just not seeing it. They’ve held dynastic control as general secretaries of the WPK have they not?
I have no interest in defending any Nazis, Ukrainian or otherwise. I just thought that post made a weak argument at a time when we need to be strong against the fascist uprising, and not look like we’re seeing SS symbols where they aren’t there. I’m happy to discuss that further.
Cowbee has provided enough information to you for you to realize this, but you still ignore or twist it all in your fucked liberal mind.
See? You still deny the SS symbol. You even went like “that resembles the SS symbol” last time. Go back to reddit.
As I understand it after the dissolution of the position of President, Kim Jong il and Kim Jong Un have held positions that are while important certainly not central such as General Secretary of the WPK. The Standing Committee of the Supreme People’s Assembly is the central state power and it’s members are elected by the Supreme People’s Assembly who are in turn elected through direct nationwide blind ballot.
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The comparison I’m about to make isn’t 100% accurate but it’s close enough to make the point I hope. The British royal family theoretically due to their position swears in the pm and leads the country etc etc, whereas in reality it’s the parliament that is the actual central political power. The Kim family is habitually elected high positions like general secretary due to the legacy they hold but in reality most of their time is spent on more ceremonial work like inspecting new developments etc while the Supreme People’s Assembly is the actual central state power. Another similar analogy is the president of Ireland as I understand it signs the laws and swears in politicians but is generally a ceremonial role this analogy is probably more accurate as like the Kim’s it is an elected position however the general point remains.
Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, and Kim Jong Un have all held largely different positions. All have had high levels in the WPK and sometimes government, but each was elected into their positions. The Kim family has outsized influence due to being seen as heroic figures, this is not a “dynasty” but normal electoral politics surrounding popular figures.
If we consider the title “Supreme Leader” to be understood as supreme leader of NK, they have all held that position, and only they have held that position. I know it’s been posthumous for the first two Kims, but it’s at least indicative. Has there been periods where the Kims have not had de facto power?
Hmm, normal? Are there many other examples of apparent inheritance of supreme leader titles for generations in electoral politics?
“Supreme Leader” is more of an honorific title, hence the posthumous designations.
As far as being normal, the DPRK pretty much is. It’s not some alien dynasty, it’s a socialist country under siege.
Sure, I just can’t come up with other places that has seen the same kind of elected dynasty, so I was hoping by “normal” you meant there were plenty of examples.
I see. So the Kims have not been de facto leaders of DPRK for three generations?
There are plenty of other examples of family members of former leaders being elected. Happens all the time, but “dynasty” is only used against the DPRK. As far as being “de facto leaders,” they have held political power but not power over the entire system. The DPRK has a more distributed system of governance.
You have to be pretty ignorant to make this statement. The allegations are verifiable: leaked video of concentration camps, escapee testimony, human rights groups reports of famine and so on. DPRK is in fact, an authoritarian shithole.
To the contrary, you have to entirely ignore the role of western propaganda to credibly believe everything the west says about a country they committed genocide against, and disbelieve everything said country has said about itself.
There are no “concentration camps.” The DPRK has prisons, sure, as do all countries.
Defector testemony is notoriously unreliable. Defectors are discriminated against in the workplace, and as such most turn to spinning tall tales to make a living. Speaking positively about the DPRK is illegal in the ROK and is punishable, as is returning to the DPRK, despite a good number of defectors wishing to return to their homeland.
“Human rights groups” are often heavily western influenced, and as such western biases plague reporting. Famine did exist during the 90s and early 2000s when the USSR dissolved and massive flooding ruined farming for years in the DPRK. These days, however, food is far more stable, and rural areas are seeing priority in development through the 20x10 policy.
You don’t really have a leg to stand on here, you are trusting the empire that committed genocide against Korea to be truthful about Korea.
Bro… you’re trolling just to discredit democratic socialism, just admit it.
Countless human rights groups are critical of the US and Israel, and have been documenting famine, conecentration camps, and human rights abuses in the DPRK for decades: https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/these-images-dont-lie-exposing-north-koreas-dirty-little-secret/
And, you forgot to mention the Holodomor in your response citing the USSR. How convenient!
Trolling? I’m a communist, what I say is consistent with what Marxist-Leninists believe to be true. Again, citing Amnesty USA as evidence against the DPRK is ridiculous chauvanism. Would you exclusively cite Israeli sources on Palestine?
Regarding famine in particular, the overwhelming consensus is that it was driven by genocidal destruction of agriculture by the US Empire, the dissolution of their largest trading partner, and mass flooding in the 90s, which is why their food security is getting better.
The DPRK has prisons. Allegations that it has “concentration camps” are projection at best. Same with “human rights abuses.”
No idea what you’re getting at regarding the 1930s Soviet famine.
Either way, “democratic socialism” is just social democracy without self awareness. Reform is a dead end, revolution is necessary, and socialism is already democratic.
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You don’t even begin to understand the horrors of the last few centuries. If you did you’d realize why Europe/The West in general lies so much and basically accuses every socialist/anti-Us country of doing cartoonishly evil things because it’s the only way Americans see a government operate; not only that but most Americans believe whatever the state department tells them about any country even though they KNOW the US lies about them.
It’s always “yeah, I know the US is bad, but I just KNOW this unprovable slop about China and the Middle East is true this time! They really did kill a bajillion protesters so we have to be involved, US has a responsibility to promote its democratic values!!!” Completely dropping the criticism they claimed before.
We can see your colour just fine, it’s red blood from a scratched liberal, a fascist.
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Most of us were you before we read some theory. If you want to understand us, the most approachable introduction would be watching a lecture by Michael Parenti on youtube or your preferred alternative, and/or reading Blackshirts and reds
How do you not get it? If reform is impossible, then democratic socialism is in practice just welfare imperialism. My “true colors” have been open for years, I’m a communist. And for what it’s worth, Marxism-Leninism is rising.
Post proof including that leaked video of concentration camps
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This article doesn’t even have any functioning links dude
Post direct sources, any videos, actual pictures. “There’s so much of this” okay then post it, since it’s plentiful.
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What are you even saying lol. Is your lib brain cooked?
What video?
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Half of the links are dead the other half are videos of satellite images that proves absolute nothing, they’re same people who made claims about concentration camps in China using satellite image and later people took photos of the places and they were just normal schools or normal prisons.
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There are random ass tourists on youtube going there and you can see the Uyghur language everywhere in signs and even hear it in the background as random people speak it. Many random liberals even asked people about this and they were told it’s a lie. Literally just watch random people who go there, and less imperialist propaganda.
There aren’t, how about you focus on the concentration camps and genocide your country is actively participating in?
You are also free to try posting proof again, considering your first and only link you cited 3 times only has dead links. Just post any, I know you can do it! All this proof everywhere, just so much proof!
How could you possibly know there aren’t? You don’t believe that they have concentration camps… just like US citizens don’t believe they have concentration camps.
In reality, odds are very, very good that they both have concentration camps. There’s no way that you can know otherwise.
You’re the one making a claim and you didn’t even read your source to see that people CAN’T look it up because the links are dead.
Weak troll.
proceeds to post the same link three times
Yeah, so much of this evidence.
Pretty sure Amnesty also took ages to recognize the genocide in Palestine, assuming they have.
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You’re the one making claims. The burden of proof is on you. Why are you surprised you’re being asked for evidence?
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Great strawman of what others are saying very impressive.
Not at this moment no. What I’m responding in favour of is people who make claims providing evidence instead of telling others to provide evidence to prove a negative. You’re making the claim the DPRK is a shithole you have to provide the evidence that proves that (and ideally can survive some scrutiny of backing, bias etc.)
I’m not particularly other then the fact that the people from the DPRK I met during my time in college were always so nice and proud of how far they’ve come as a nation and seeing you disparage that and generally be kind of an asshole is distasteful.
Why are you so offended and so protective of your liberal delusion?
Your country is the one with the highest prisoner per capita and repeated suppression of any political dissidents. Your country has killed millions in the past 100 years through wars, sanctions and genocide. I don’t give one fuck about Amerikans who are especially so racist, chauvinistic and filled with reprehensible bloodlust towards anyone outside their imperial core.
Your country is broken and the population there is completely unheard and suffering and you project all of your issues onto another country because you can’t bear to stand knowing that, YES! Your country is in fact this uniquely bad and horrible, not everyone is inherently just as bad or worse by some fantasy logic cooked up by crazy liberals.
What you posted doesn’t even fucking work, because all you did was a quick google search and pasted it 3 times and called it “a lot of evidence”
Authoritarian, like your parents being authoritarian by telling you to go to bed?
Go back to reddit you fascist.