I’ve always understood it to mean that bi could mean being attracted to mainly cis men and women, and pan adds trans and nonbinary into the equation. I’ve seen other distinctions made, but this makes more sense to me.
I usually just say I’m bi though, because some folks have this weird notion that being pan means you’re into literally every adult, and it gets exhausting trying to convince people that you’re still allowed to have preferences.
That makes me hesitant to ever identify as bisexual though and honestly that makes me really sad. I’ve become quite attached to bisexuality as a part of my identity and adhere to the definition @TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone used here:
the bi part of bisexual refers to both homosexual (same gender) and heterosexual (different gender) so nobody’s left out. I guess an argument could be made that an agender person might not fit under either umbrella, but i would still consider agender to be either same gender (if the bisexual person is also agender) or different gender (if the bisexual person is not agender).
I would just hate to signal to anyone not cis that I’m rejecting them based on my own identity.
All of this is just retroactive attempts to delineate the two labels after the concept of being transgender started to become understood by a wider portion of the public (and the queer community, for that matter). Don’t let faux-academic definitions define your identity. If “bisexual” feels like it fits but gender-nonconforming, agender, androgynous-presenting, and/or genderfluid people are also your thing, that’s entirely fine.
(Edit: and it doesn’t in any way invalidate other people’s self-labeling when they categorize it differently to you. Labels are only there to simplify communication of ideas. They’re not a sports team.)
I would just hate to signal to anyone not cis that I’m rejecting them based on my own identity.
That would imply being anything other than pansexual is wrong and discriminatory, period.
It’s worth stressing that it’s perfectly fine to reject someone as a potential partner for any reason or even for no reason at all. For example if you find white women more attractive than black women, I don’t think it makes you racist if that’s just about attraction, not respect.
I think that distinction just grew up with the current trend of trans-exclusion. I identify as bi and my bi club is explicitly inclusive of trans and NB folk. The transphobes will have to pry the ol’ pink and blue from my cold dead sexy bisexual hands.
You mean like how you have no idea if I’m a man or a woman? Funny how it’s one set of rules for you and another for me.
Edit: To clarify, this isn’t a “You can’t define what a woman is” thing, it’s a “this user loves to make assumptions about me and is mad when I do the same” thing.
I never said that. I said all the ones I encountered have been that way. There’s probably loads of fem lesbians that are cool, that don’t make their issues (or lack thereof) my problem. I’ve probably talked to a few that didn’t even feel the need to bring up their sexuality.
Edit: As always, you’re jumping the gun and assuming my beliefs and positions so you have a punching bag.
This is transphobic because it insinuates that trans people are some third gender rather than their actual gender. There is nothing about bisexuality or the “bi” prefix that would imply that bi people are only attracted to cis people unless you believe that trans and cis people are separate genders.
Nonbinary people, on the other hand, I can see how “bi means two” can be conflated to mean bisexuals can’t be attracted to nonbinary people although I think that ignores the history of the term bisexual, as well as ignores the reality of nonbinary genders, i.e. you can’t necessarily tell someone is nonbinary by looking at them. I think when people say they’re “not attracted to nonbinary people” if they’re not bigoted they likely mean something like not being attracted to androgyny, but not all nonbinary people present androgynously.
Some people legitimately just aren’t into trans people though. I’m not like that, but some people just aren’t attracted for one reason or another. Not all trans people pass, and some trans people don’t exhibit their gender in a way someone else would like.
Honestly the whole thing is frustrating because we’re trying to put people in a box because that how humans operate, while our attraction doesn’t.
Not all trans people pass, and some trans people don’t exhibit their gender in a way someone else would like.
Some do pass. How would those people who think they aren’t attracted to trans people even know until clothes come off? And even then, they might not be able to tell if a person is trans, cis, or intersex.
It’s like when people say they aren’t attracted to bisexual men. It’s personal preference rooted in bigotry, even if they’re not conscious of it.
Because the only trans people they personally know are ones they aren’t attracted to?
That doesn’t mean they won’t be attracted to any and all trans people.
There’s nothing different about a bisexual man and a straight man when it comes to dating. If someone doesn’t like bisexual men because bisexual men are also attracted to men, that is a preference rooted in homophobia.
It also doesn’t mean they will be either. You aren’t the only person in the world.
Yeah, because gay and straight people totally always have the same culture and behavior right? I don’t know what weird world you live in, but here in reality both our brains and our environment shape our personality. If your brain has an attraction to one or multiple kinds of people in absolutely will affect other parts of the brain. In your reality it seems like we’re all just a checklist of traits that don’t interact.
That has nothing to do with being bisexual or not though. I might not be into bodybuilders “exhibiting their masculinity” by being absurdly jacked, but that doesn’t make me not bisexual. I’m just not attracted to that particular gender presentation.
I think when people say “I’m not attracted to trans people” they have a particular idea of a trans person in their head, but plenty of trans people pass and some go “stealth”. “We can always tell” is patently false. I suppose I can imagine a person who is so caught up in gender who would be turned off if they found out someone is trans, but I find it difficult to imagine anyone not asexual who wouldn’t find some trans person initially attractive, at least post-op.
I agree with your last point though. At this point I’ve mostly given up on pansexual/bisexual and just call myself queer.
Did I say people can always tell? I don’t think it’s fair to say that you’re attracted to trans people in general if your just looking at one with fundamentally no obvious differences from a cis person at first glance.
I think our disagreement here is that you’re assuming all trans people want to be seen as the same as a cis person of that gender, right? Well, I know personally and online that some trans folks like being seen as “their own thing”. I don’t think it’s really fair to lump all trans people in a box and say that’s that. I’m sure I fall into that trap at points because humans like putting things into specific categories, but I’m more in favor of seeing the spectrum as just that, a spectrum.
I’m coming at this from the perspective that someone attracted to a passing trans person is basically just attracted to that gender and someone attracted to a (more or less) non passing trans male for example might be more into women who exhibit more masculine traits.
Apologies if this doesn’t make sense at first glance. I wrote this down as more of a stream of consciousness than a thesis.
I’ve always understood it to mean that bi could mean being attracted to mainly cis men and women, and pan adds trans and nonbinary into the equation. I’ve seen other distinctions made, but this makes more sense to me.
I usually just say I’m bi though, because some folks have this weird notion that being pan means you’re into literally every adult, and it gets exhausting trying to convince people that you’re still allowed to have preferences.
That makes me hesitant to ever identify as bisexual though and honestly that makes me really sad. I’ve become quite attached to bisexuality as a part of my identity and adhere to the definition @TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone used here:
I would just hate to signal to anyone not cis that I’m rejecting them based on my own identity.
All of this is just retroactive attempts to delineate the two labels after the concept of being transgender started to become understood by a wider portion of the public (and the queer community, for that matter). Don’t let faux-academic definitions define your identity. If “bisexual” feels like it fits but gender-nonconforming, agender, androgynous-presenting, and/or genderfluid people are also your thing, that’s entirely fine.
(Edit: and it doesn’t in any way invalidate other people’s self-labeling when they categorize it differently to you. Labels are only there to simplify communication of ideas. They’re not a sports team.)
<3
That would imply being anything other than pansexual is wrong and discriminatory, period.
It’s worth stressing that it’s perfectly fine to reject someone as a potential partner for any reason or even for no reason at all. For example if you find white women more attractive than black women, I don’t think it makes you racist if that’s just about attraction, not respect.
I would hate to signal it because I am personally attracted to cis and trans people, but still like to identify as bisexual. That’s all :)
I think that distinction just grew up with the current trend of trans-exclusion. I identify as bi and my bi club is explicitly inclusive of trans and NB folk. The transphobes will have to pry the ol’ pink and blue from my cold dead sexy bisexual hands.
Hell yeah!
Yeah, you’re definitely not proving me wrong on that.
You have no idea if I’m butch or fem.
You mean like how you have no idea if I’m a man or a woman? Funny how it’s one set of rules for you and another for me.
Edit: To clarify, this isn’t a “You can’t define what a woman is” thing, it’s a “this user loves to make assumptions about me and is mad when I do the same” thing.
It’s bigoted as fuck to assert that all butch lesbians are cool and all fem lesbians are bitter.
I never said that. I said all the ones I encountered have been that way. There’s probably loads of fem lesbians that are cool, that don’t make their issues (or lack thereof) my problem. I’ve probably talked to a few that didn’t even feel the need to bring up their sexuality.
Edit: As always, you’re jumping the gun and assuming my beliefs and positions so you have a punching bag.
Assuming that I’m fem because you don’t get along with me is a bigoted way of thinking.
You really don’t understand the irony of that statement and the way you’ve labeled me, do you? That’s really sad that you’re so bigoted.
who assumed that you are a man?
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it’s the internet nobody cares who you are or who is slandering you lol
you’re not that important
This is transphobic because it insinuates that trans people are some third gender rather than their actual gender. There is nothing about bisexuality or the “bi” prefix that would imply that bi people are only attracted to cis people unless you believe that trans and cis people are separate genders.
Nonbinary people, on the other hand, I can see how “bi means two” can be conflated to mean bisexuals can’t be attracted to nonbinary people although I think that ignores the history of the term bisexual, as well as ignores the reality of nonbinary genders, i.e. you can’t necessarily tell someone is nonbinary by looking at them. I think when people say they’re “not attracted to nonbinary people” if they’re not bigoted they likely mean something like not being attracted to androgyny, but not all nonbinary people present androgynously.
Some people legitimately just aren’t into trans people though. I’m not like that, but some people just aren’t attracted for one reason or another. Not all trans people pass, and some trans people don’t exhibit their gender in a way someone else would like.
Honestly the whole thing is frustrating because we’re trying to put people in a box because that how humans operate, while our attraction doesn’t.
Some do pass. How would those people who think they aren’t attracted to trans people even know until clothes come off? And even then, they might not be able to tell if a person is trans, cis, or intersex.
It’s like when people say they aren’t attracted to bisexual men. It’s personal preference rooted in bigotry, even if they’re not conscious of it.
Because the only trans people they personally know are ones they aren’t attracted to?
The second paragraph is ridiculous. There’s more to a person’s sexuality than just sex. We’re human beings, everything runs together.
That doesn’t mean they won’t be attracted to any and all trans people.
There’s nothing different about a bisexual man and a straight man when it comes to dating. If someone doesn’t like bisexual men because bisexual men are also attracted to men, that is a preference rooted in homophobia.
It also doesn’t mean they will be either. You aren’t the only person in the world.
Yeah, because gay and straight people totally always have the same culture and behavior right? I don’t know what weird world you live in, but here in reality both our brains and our environment shape our personality. If your brain has an attraction to one or multiple kinds of people in absolutely will affect other parts of the brain. In your reality it seems like we’re all just a checklist of traits that don’t interact.
I’m not trans, but ok.
That’s the point. They don’t know either. So to assume that every single trans person is not attractive to them is an assumption based in bigotry.
They can overlap a lot depending on the person.
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That has nothing to do with being bisexual or not though. I might not be into bodybuilders “exhibiting their masculinity” by being absurdly jacked, but that doesn’t make me not bisexual. I’m just not attracted to that particular gender presentation.
I think when people say “I’m not attracted to trans people” they have a particular idea of a trans person in their head, but plenty of trans people pass and some go “stealth”. “We can always tell” is patently false. I suppose I can imagine a person who is so caught up in gender who would be turned off if they found out someone is trans, but I find it difficult to imagine anyone not asexual who wouldn’t find some trans person initially attractive, at least post-op.
I agree with your last point though. At this point I’ve mostly given up on pansexual/bisexual and just call myself queer.
I really like that the LGBT+ community has rallied around reclaiming the word “queer”.
Did I say people can always tell? I don’t think it’s fair to say that you’re attracted to trans people in general if your just looking at one with fundamentally no obvious differences from a cis person at first glance.
I think our disagreement here is that you’re assuming all trans people want to be seen as the same as a cis person of that gender, right? Well, I know personally and online that some trans folks like being seen as “their own thing”. I don’t think it’s really fair to lump all trans people in a box and say that’s that. I’m sure I fall into that trap at points because humans like putting things into specific categories, but I’m more in favor of seeing the spectrum as just that, a spectrum.
I’m coming at this from the perspective that someone attracted to a passing trans person is basically just attracted to that gender and someone attracted to a (more or less) non passing trans male for example might be more into women who exhibit more masculine traits.
Apologies if this doesn’t make sense at first glance. I wrote this down as more of a stream of consciousness than a thesis.