I think this warrants a fediverse wide boycott of all piefed/fedia instances until this is rectified.
Can you point to the file in the pieced codeberg repo that hardcodes these blocks?
I need to understand if this is a block built into the software, or just an option the operators who deploy piefed have set in a blocklist.
It’s a default option: https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/src/commit/f3e863d277932b55a15b1fe5043d750994fb8c14/app/cli.py#L116
Admins can obviously edit it later on, like those instances do:
- https://piefed.zip/c/news@hexbear.net
- https://piefed.zip/instances?page=9&filter=federated&search=
- https://piefed.au/instances?page=6&filter=federated&search=
- https://anarchist.nexus/instances?page=4&filter=federated&search= , which is related to https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/, also federated with hexbear
Thanks for pointing that out.
That level of opinion in core infrastructure software is very inappropriate. This is disturbing
It would be better to default to dynamically pull from feediseer
That can definitely be improved. On the other hand,
List of Piefed instances that currently defederate hexbear:
- https://piefed.blahaj.zone/ , the same way https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ does
- https://piefed.world/, the same way https://lemmy.world/ does
- https://piefed.ca/, the same way https://lemmy.ca/ does
- https://feddit.online/, the same way https://fedia.io/ does (by the way, Fedia isn’t a software, it’s called Mbin, and doesn’t have such code, so not sure why you’re including them into your title)
- https://quokk.au/, it used to be the same when it was still a Lemmy instance
- https://piefed.europe.pub/, the same way https://europe.pub/ does
https://piefed.fediverse.observer/list
As you can see, instances defederating hexbear are instances managed by teams which were going to do so anyway, as they already did on Lemmy. I’m still waiting for an example of an instance that defederated hexbear “by mistake”.
Instances who want to federate know how to do so, as we’ve seen above.
Setting up an instance isn’t trivial, assuming that admins would revise the defederation list doesn’t seem realistic.
Recent comment from an admin
This is exactly how it works. I started a PieFed instance and made the decision (during setup) to trim the defederation list down to none. Users can block on the account level.
Now you’re talking past me.
The issue is not that there is an option, the issue is not that there is even a suggested option.
The issue is a writer of core infrastructure software is putting their prejudices into the software as a default that have to be opted out of. That is antithetical to federation. That is pushing an agenda. That has no place in core infrastructure software.
Imagine if the Linux kernel by default, hard coded, blocked all IP addresses connecting to China, anybody could go in and remove those blocks, but they’re there by default… Infrastructure should not have political opinions baked into it
We can go back and forth about wither this has had a material impact. That’s not actually important. What it demonstrates is this software project is not mature yet. They still have too many emotional biases baked in.
I half expected them to have the Lemy.lol block baked in, thankfully they didn’t, but it wouldn’t have surprised me if they did.
As I said above,
That can definitely be improved.
What I expect down the line is that there will be a (y/n) option during setup that will allow admins to choose.
As of now, it’s not a priority, there is bigger fish to fry. Piefed 1.2 is around the corner (https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/projects/19472 ), with many improvements that have been required for a while (e.g. communities and username autocompletion)
Let’s also not forget that for years Lemmy had a built-in, activated by default slur filter impacting all users, still nobody made a fuss about it, admins just disabled it and called it a day.
I don’t know, this level of what about ism feels like an attack on a very real and legitimate issue
Absolutely I agree that pie feed does great things, and they’re updating, but 100% this is a real legitimate issue. And it needs to be addressed.
Given this is the only place I have found this discussion happening in a productive way, we shouldn’t sidetrack it.
Basically we’re talking about the lead developer maturing and removing their opinions. It takes almost zero effort to code that, but it might take a lifetime of effort for them to come to that position.
I understand other commenters frustrations with your counters, it feels like a dismissal, this is a real problem affecting real users today and they have legitimate grievance. If they want to organize, that is very reasonable.
Let me just reach out to the admin I quoted above. I’m not sure about the details of what they had to do during setup, maybe it’s even easier that we thought.
Given this is the only place I have found this discussion happening in a productive way, we shouldn’t sidetrack it.
There is this post as well: https://hackertalks.com/post/15572214?scrollToComments=true
Comment from Rimu there: https://hackertalks.com/post/15572214/10757273
I understand other commenters frustrations with your counters, it feels like a dismissal, this is a real problem affecting real users today and they have legitimate grievance. .
Other commenters also state that changing those settings requires to fork the project, when it’s just a settings modification
https://lemmy.zip/post/47272125/21126381
Frustration goes both ways
Isn’t this how it’s always worked? I think it’s the same with lemmy.world where you can see comments from .world users on Lemmygrad but they can’t see your replies.
Absolutely deserved tbh
Nah, pre-censoring leftists is a great way to make a chauvanistic echo chamber.
“Leftists”
Yes.
I have removed the piefed instances that did not unblock hexbear from our allow-list to prevent the one way federation
Awesome thank you.
I think it’s annoying, but im not sure if there’s a clear solution. Id say this type of one sided block is similar to ghost bans and feels just as abusive.
I cant imagine it’s very pleasant on their side either, since it would feel as if everyone from grad or ml were giving you the cold shoulder and make the fediverse feel dead.
The nature of the fediverse is open though - escalating this to another ban/block or banning the custom fork would be counterproductive, imo. If thats their preferred way to curate content, I guess thats their prerogative
“wow switching to piefed cured my Havana syndrome”:
Where is that code? Does it block some specific instances or how does it work?
For hexbear + lemmygrad it’s by default
from what I can tell, when a server is spun up there’s the option to subscribe to an existing blocklist on a piefed server.
This means blocklists can propagate transitively:
If instance A blocks lemmy.ml, and instance B subscribes to A’s blocklist, and instance C subscribes to B’s blocklist, then whatever instance is blocked on A will also end up blocked on C (unless filtered out manually).
quoting the developer of piefed, hexbear and lemmygrad are blocked by default:
This is why piefed is so popular with centrist extremists.
Bruv, OP asks ‘What’s your stance on Genocide?’ and then refers to Ukraine and China rather than Israel, that’s bad enough, but then the PieFed guy replies with that they ban speech which minimises ‘Atrocities committed by Hamas in Gaza’! Sheesh.
That’s a known social chauvanist powermod, one of the fediverse’s loudest anti-communists and Israel defenders while vaguely posturing as a leftist.
Harcoded block lists in your software? Gross.
Piefed just seems like it’s going to be a social chauvanist echo chamber, most people like Lemmy because even though the devs have their own ideological principles, it doesn’t pre-configure the user experience based on those principles.
It’s rather unfortunate that no one gets to see other perspectives. And it’s messing with my hope that the USA can get better, because it’s feels like this: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/8939607
These people are willing to accept the “lesser evil,” but it’s the same evil, and they are condemning poor people and PoC to have to deal with it, because we’re the buffer. But they won’t stop at us.
Moreover, this is the censorship they screen bloody murder about with the “great firewall.” Absolutely zero introspective
abilityeffort.It’s deeply unfortunate, that’s why I try to do the best I can to stay optimistic but realistic.
Well collective karma is real, and they think by throwing some into the volcano it won’t erupt. But the volcano is going to do what it does, eventually.
I hope so.
🫂
Does it not have that slur filter still? Not sure that’s really the reason people use lemmy
The slur filter was one of the most genius moves I’ve ever seen.
I think it’s a bit heavy handed and there are legit reasons why one wouldn’t want it, but it certainly repelled the right type of potential Lemmy admins
I don’t think the slur filter is something enabled by default, or if it is, is a widely known setting.
It used to be hard coded, not even in the database but in Lemmy code itself and couldn’t be changed without forking. If I read the issue https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/622 correct, this has changed though.
Ah, gotcha.
Thanks. That’s unfortunate. But everyone running an instance will know about blocked instances sooner or later and can get them if the list of they like.
The blocklist subscription would be super useful on mastodon but I think the threadiverse is a bit different. However I’m on my single user instance and am subscribed to communities on other instances only, so I already get a pre-moderated experience even if I don’t block any instances myself so far so is experience doesn’t match that of the admin of an instance with more users and own communities.
You can still federate after the instance setup, like piefed.zip does
You said I spammed this, but you still didn’t register the information?
https://hexbear.net/post/5959834/6443954
Omg dude we get it stop spamming this. We know. That is not what this is about.
If someone runs an instance that has manually unblocked us cool but that is not what this is about and you are clearly the one not registering what I am pointing out here
You are presenting this like the baked in code forces one-way federation, when it’s clear that the admins can update this later.
Example of two Piefed instances that currently federate hexbear:
- https://piefed.au/instances?page=6&filter=federated&search=
- https://anarchist.nexus/instances?page=4&filter=federated&search= , which is related to https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/, also federated with hexbear
List of Piefed instances that currently defederate hexbear:
- https://piefed.blahaj.zone/ , the same way https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ does
- https://piefed.world/, the same way https://lemmy.world/ does
- https://piefed.ca/, the same way https://lemmy.ca/ does
- https://feddit.online/, the same way https://fedia.io/ does (by the way, Fedia isn’t a software, it’s called Mbin, and doesn’t have such code, so not sure why you’re including them into your title)
- https://quokk.au/, it used to be the same when it was still a Lemmy instance
- https://piefed.europe.pub/, the same way https://europe.pub/ does
https://piefed.fediverse.observer/list
As you can see, instances defederating hexbear are instances managed by teams which were going to do so anyway, as they already did on Lemmy.
Instances who want to federate know how to do so, there are three examples.
Yes but I am saying we should block at least any that have this one directional federation. You are putting impressive effort into missing the point.
Edit: And thankfully we apparently just did.
On a technical level, defederation is one way.
Oh my god please shut the fuck up. No it is not. You are being an annoying pedantic little piece of shit you do get that right? You fucking know what I am complaining about here and you keep posting this “welll AAAACKSHUALLLLLY”.
Let me spell this out for you one last fucking time:
“federation” in spirit is the sharing of content BETWEEN instances and is intended as a two way affair. Piefed instances default to blocking any and all traffic from hexbear or lemmygrad and thus there is no way to know if being federated with those instances is actually allowing mutual communication unless tested and therefore without explicit prior statement that the instance owner has gone in and removed the malicious coding nobody should federate with them at all.
Finally and what this entire post is about: I am calling for everyone, not just hexbear, to defederate and block piefed on principle because their devs are deliberately trying to worsen the entire concept of the fediverse by trying to enforce their fascist ideology through blocking dissent through their code.
It is underhanded and dishonest and a shameful display of liberalism aiding fascism.
The behavior you demonstrate here is exactly why hexbear is so widely blocked, and it makes it difficult for those of us trying to keep the infrastructure less opinionated when this is how you behave when you have a legitimate grievance
Another example that got moderated: https://lemmy.zip/modlog?userId=1633475
thus there is no way to know if being federated with those instances is actually allowing mutual communication unless tested
There is, I linked to the /instances pages that show which instances are federated or not above
- https://piefed.au/instances?page=6&filter=federated&search=
- https://anarchist.nexus/instances?page=4&filter=federated&search=
- https://piefed.world/instances
- etc.
You fucking know what I am complaining about here and you keep posting this “welll AAAACKSHUALLLLLY”.
You seem to be misunderstanding that defederation being one way is new. I literally used a comment from another hexbear user above clarifying this.
If you want to complain about Piefed having a default defederation list, feel free, but don’t start to question the way defederation has been working between instances for years.
default defederation list,
THAT IS WHAT THIS POST IS ABOUT DUMBASS
Please kindly stop your pedantic bullshit and actually engage with the subject instead of endlessly trying to well ackshually out of it.
I swear to fucking god. I am not “misunderstanding” anything and your smug condescending tone just makes me want to shove your nerd ass into a locker.
I think it’s more that the admins are the only ones that can do that.
See this comment: https://lemmy.ml/post/35276820/20723645
Long story short, instances who defederate hexbear were doing so on their Lemmy instances anyway
THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS POST IS ABOUT. You are just shilling for this garbage ass perversion of lemmy at this point. You just keep spamming the same irrelevant post over and over again.
He’s just very committed to making sure the Nazi bars have a good public image okay?
There’s a huge post in their snark comm where they’re spinning this as ‘just a default’ and he’s pasting it there too lmao
But it literally is just a default
I did say as much in my post, it’s still an ideologically motivated preset. I’m sure all those sorts would be able to create their echo chamber without it being pre-configured for them. It’s hard to have ‘good faith’ when all the usual suspects plus its developer are posting in the comm alongside the people saying that we’re degenerate roaches. That’s why it looks like a Nazi bar from where I’m at.
This whole post is also just standard defederation.
Even people on hexbear say it
On a technical level, defederation is one way.
Maybe I should start using that comment from now on
It’s the default setting for the echo chamber that I took issue with.
I did say that it was something admins can change manually in my initial post here, twice.
@dessalines@lemmy.ml @davel@lemmy.ml I am curious as to your thoughts on this. It is very annoying for myself and others to write out effort posts refuting shit these liberals spew on our platforms only to find out none of them will ever see it. Meanwhile we have to be subject to their garbage posts and takes with no recourse. This is fundamentally detrimental to the fediverse as a whole.
There’s nothing we can do about server-to-server blocking, but I think over the long term, people will join servers that do less instance blocking, so that they can personally be in control of what they see.
And of course everyone not on restricted servers will still see your replies / takedowns, so it really only harms them. In a big way, responses are just as important to onlookers, than the one you’re responding to.
Oh yeah for sure I was just curious as to your thoughts on people taking this project and building in their own ideologically motivated blocking. I know that there is nothing to be done about it as its all open source I just find it scummy that they do this in the first place. I get not wanting to federate with specific instances but the way this works is to just automatically make it one way only unless the person using their fork manually changes it.
I don’t want to force them to see our posts or comments or anything idgaf about that I just don’t want to have to guess which people I can see on my end can actually see my replies to them ya know?
unless the person using their fork manually changes it.
Updating the defederation blocklist is done via the admin UI. A fork implies having to recreate the source code and modify it. This is different.
Recent comment from another admin
This is exactly how it works. I started a PieFed instance and made the decision (during setup) to trim the defederation list down to none. Users can block on the account level.
I’d argue it’s more of an issue for them, since they do not get to counter-argument :P
Your reply refuting their argument can be read by everyone that is in an open platform, while their messages only go unchallenged on their own echo chamber anyway.
To me, it would be worse if it was the other way around: them spewing shit and me not even realizing and being unable to respond.
Funny side note: hexbear blocked one of my diet communities at the instance level, so the echo chamber goes both ways.
In my experience, fallacious arguments spill and unravel over several comments, rarely up front, so it’s not a great thing.
It depends.
The invalid reasoning a person might have for an argument does not necessarily invalidate the argument (if you can reach the same argument from multiple reasonings), it only discredits their ability to form arguments with a valid basis.
So a long conversation can lead to the person losing credibility, but a strong rebuttal focused on the initial argument, to me, is more important if what we want is to refute the argument.
Both have their place, but usually arguments start from low-effort jabs that then turn into serious refutations from others. Fundamentally, though, is the response, giving the original jab-maker a chance to give an actual argument, upon which it can fall apart and prove the original argument better, or can refute the argument and justify the jab.
