Reminder! China has 1,000,000,000 more people than the US. Not trying to be a China simp but fuck we need to fix the zoning and whatever else they got us in this mess if we can’t even compete at this difference of population.
And I say this as someone who bought last July and would be kinda screwed if prices started going down
BUT AT WHAT COST?!
No seriously how much does it cost I need affordable housing??
China is building a middle class, Americans are ripping it down.
China is building a working class-centered society. Class isn’t really determined by wealth, but by relation to production and distribution, and this is why China’s approach has consistently resulted in continuous improvements!
Housing as a commodity instead of a human right will continue to be a blight on humanity.
How britian almost solved the housing crisis
Or, you know, do what China is doing. You dont have to agree with someone to learn from them.
That last sentence in particular
imagine not having to pay an entire minimum wage monthly to bankers (at the bare minimum) just to have a roof over your head.
Minimum wage isn’t enough to pay for a roof over your head… unless you mean the roof of a car…
not with all the other bills and stuff to pay for. at least here.
and cars are getting more and more expensive because our car industry doesn’t want to sell to consumers anymore, living in cars is not as viable.
living in cars is never “viable” it’s just what some people do when thier only other alternative is living under a bridge…
Unhoused people living in cars aren’t buying new cars, so it doesn’t really matter what car manufacturers are doing today for them… and the maintenance costs are still way lower than paying rent
In two years I’ve paid $104,000 to my mortgage!
…why is it only $17,000 lower…
interesting… 😅
The key phrase is “amortization schedule”. It’s bullshit and for collusory reasons no banks compete on it, they all use the same one.
I’m paying 3x my states monthly minimum wage for hourly workers to own in a fairly modest 1100 sqft house in a semi walkable area in a major city.
Before here I used to pay my states monthly minimum wage for hourly workers to live in a fucking slum just outside the city. House was by an interstate so I got soot on anything I left outside, all the houses in the neighborhood were water damaged and molded to hell, the roads were so cracked it was fucking up cars, and everyone who lived there seemed miserable.
It’s grind or die, I got so fucking sick living in alleged affordable housing. Nerve damage and all kinds of weird chronic health problems from living in such a toxic death trap for years. They don’t call it the Dirty South for nothing, this place is completely fucked.
Renting is when your landlord makes you pay an extra 25 dollars a month because you yelled at him one time over leaving cat shit in the shared bathroom all day
Shared bathrooms, what a concept.
Doesn’t China have an issue with 65 million of their homes sitting empty which belong to people with no intention to ever move in?
It’s my understanding that owning a home in China is seen as social leverage so people buy homes that don’t even benefit their lives.
This isn’t too be a pessimist, I do think China’s rising middle class is much better off than it has ever been. I just don’t idealize their housing.
There was a problem with using housing as an investment vehicle, yes, though the state took action against that, destroying the “market” for balooning housing prices.
How did they deflate the market? So it wasn’t social pressure but rather economic pressure that led to it?
“Houses are for living, not for speculation.”
The state implemented strong controls on credit and to curb debt in the property sector. Strong positions against real estate investment.
‘Doesn’t count because the government can take it away whenever they want…’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_States
I was prepared to dunk on you until I saw the link and instance lol
what would you have dunked with?
Literally the link provided
Isn’t the land underneath the house never owned by the person, always the state? So while they may “own” the structure, it’s always in doubt of whether they will be able to lease the land again after the current lease expires.
Oh no, the state in China prevents rich assholes from buying up and hoarding property, how terrible!
Oh no, the rich still own heaps of land
Not nearly as much, and without a massive homelessness problem.
Add I’ve pointed out to you before the GINI disagrees with you.
So your home is tied to where you were born. If you move to the city for a better life, but it doesn’t work out the state well fox your homelessness by shipping you back to where you came from.
The hukou system is broken, but it’s good to see that it’s being noticed and they are attempts to fix it
It’s both a dramatic improvement on what was before, and the PRC’s homeless rate is incredibly small. You disproved nothing, and are moving goalposts.
oh no the lib bible disagrees in face of all evidence, must be true 🤣
What evidence 🤡
this evidence ignoramus
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes
Chinese household savings hit another record high in 2024 https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-bank-earnings-01-12-2024/card/chinese-household-savings-hit-another-record-high-xqyky00IsIe357rtJb4j
Social mobility in China being far better than in the US https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
The typical Chinese adult is now richer than the typical European adult https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-chinese-adult-now-richer-than-europeans-wealth-report-finds-2022-9
The real (inflation-adjusted) incomes of the poorest half of the Chinese population increased by more than four hundred percent from 1978 to 2015, while real incomes of the poorest half of the US population actually declined during the same time period. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23119/w23119.pdf
From 2010 to 2019 (the most recent period for which uninterrupted data is available), the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.DST.FRST.20?end=2019&%3Blocations=CN&%3Bstart=2008
Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI
Meanwhile, billionaires are fleeing China https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/china-billionaires-declining-rich-list-13830670.html
chat what is a “property tax”
If they have to pay to renew the lease, that’s is a kind of property tax, especially if an individual has to compete to buy their own lease. This may or may not be the case.
As well, as long as property tax is paid it means the land can be held indefinitely. In the current systems, this is preferable. This is versus the land lease method where, if they don’t renew the lease because you forgot or somebody is pissed off at you in the government, ejection could be automatic.
There are also ostensibly value-added taxes and land appreciation taxes but I’ll admit those are not property taxes per se.
There is also this source that says that select cities such as Shanghai and Chongqing have pilot programs for property tax primarily targeted at high-value residential properties and secondary homes but they don’t have any sources, so I have no clue if it’s true.
If they have to pay to renew the lease, that’s is a kind of property tax, especially if an individual has to compete to buy their own lease.
That’s my point when people go “oh they don’t own the house they lease the land” because having to owe property taxes on a paid off house is functionally similar (but the U.S. still doesn’t have 90%+ home ownership rates and even if it did the vast majority would still be paying on mortgages in addition to property taxes)
Yeah, this may be splitting hairs. It seems to me that the Chinese and “western” systems are more similar than different.
They’re different because the chinese own their houses while Americans are leasing them from banks unless they’re lucky enough to pay it off before they die
it’s a lifetime lease and prevents the accumulation of generational wealth in real estate. not flawless but generally still miles better than what westerners have. (nothing)
It does? Do you have anything to back up that claim?
the fact that real estate is dirt cheap and therefore it’s not a feasible way to become a leech (landlord) and live off rent because it’ll not pay off
That’s not backing it up, that’s saying “nu uh” in an echo chamber.
Do better. Cause I actually want proof. Like, please, give me proof it’s better.
You are sealioning right now. You’re asking someone else to do a shit ton of work under the guise of “just asking questions” pretending to have healthy discourse.
A lot of this sites people suck and its filled with people justifying absurd things, but right here, you are asking a question so open ended its tantamount to asking for a thesis paper, and those would still be scrutinized.
Uh if the 90% overall homeownership rate isn’t “backing it up” I want to know how you define “better”
OK, do you have a source for the 90% home ownership rate?
Why? Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? Is there a particular reason you’re so adamant that China’s system must be worse than the commodified system we have in the west?
eChO cHaMbEr
This is much preferable way to handle land “ownership”, it should all be stated owned and leased. Insane that any private individual is allowed to pretend to “own” land.
Then the government “owns” the land. Doing something like the tree that owns itself except with all land would be even better, assuming people respect the laws. My vision would be more of a shared stewardship of the land rather than a drive to exploit it.
Why exactly is it wrong for land to be owned and used by the public?
What do you think “shared stewardship of the land” means?
I’m asking why you’re so opposed to public ownership.
And what’s the problem with that?
This may be a hot take but I think there should not be forever private ancestral lands.
The city/state should periodically get the land back and resell it to cover the ever changing maintenance costs (heck you are paying this with the increasing property tax)
The city/state should have a relatively predictable timeline of when they can reliably gain control of a land back so they can plan development around it (particularly infrastructure) and not deal with someone who know they can just squat on such land to sell for an inflated price.
Having an “expiration date” on the land is a surefire way to stop ever increasing property prices, getting a home with a shorter remaining lease period might be preferable for some who is not going to stay there permanently but long enough to want to own a home and having these options be a cheaper option is a very good thing. Such expiration date also means it is easier to modernize each property as needed, this will not be the death of historic buildings because the city/state still can make exceptions for them if needed.
Also how many of the US-ians are getting a house as their inheritance anyways? Oftentimes when a generation passes away post retirement, their house gets sold to some investment firm and becomes a rental.
So the city/state should be covering maintenance costs by reselling the land… what the fuck are rates and land taxes meant to cover again?
The idea is to use land as a public resource, not something to be hoarded.
The answer is already there, increase rates for homes which aren’t owner occupied.
Anything else is just a tax on the working class.
How exactly is it better for land to be ownable by the populace, rather than the public? I understand that there’s taxes, it’s to combat home ownership as an investment vehicle.
I am 100% sure that even when westerners will be reduced to living in a pods, eating bugs, owning nothing and being happy (or else) there would still be massive number of homeless people to serve as warning for pod people to be happy (or else).
Sadly I think you’re right.
There are no property taxes in China last I checked.
It’s almost like people are talking about implementing this in other countries, strange concept I know, once you’ve caught up perhaps you could contribute meaningfully to the discussion.
Being a jackass is also not a meaningful contribution.
Agreed, you should try not doing it sometime
Pointing out someone being rude does not make me rude.
If they have to pay to renew the lease, that’s is a kind of property tax, especially if an individual has to compete to buy their own lease. This may or may not be the case.
There are also ostensibly value-added taxes and land appreciation taxes but I’ll admit those are not property taxes per se.
There is also this source that says that select cities such as Shanghai and Chongqing have pilot programs for property tax primarily targeted at high-value residential properties and secondary homes but they don’t have any sources, so I have no clue if it’s true.
The news about the pilot is correct. Xi Jinping had been pushing for it for a long time and this is all he has been able to get so far. He is strongly against speculative growth of real estate.
AFAIK residents don’t have to compete to renew the lease. We have seen the first batches of leases expiring in recent times and no one got evicted. What I understand is that, you can’t sell your house after the lease expires, but you can continue living their indefinitely till the building crumbles. If the government decides to demolish and redevelop, then they give you a new house in the same place.
Awesome! Do you have another source for the pilot? I expect it’s all in Mandarin and I am terrible at finding things in other languages.
I don’t have anything handy but I believe there’s a wikipedia page which has references for this topic. I can’t remember which one.
Yeah the us would never force anyone off of land.
Every government does, that’s no “gotcha”.
The US did and does it.
China did it with 1.3 million people to build a dam.
Russia is doing it in Ukraine.
Doesn’t make it any of the instances right.
Human Rights Watch? Seriously? Do you look into your sources at all, or are you just happy to spread imperial apologia?
Wikipedia is a terrible source for current affairs.
Your attempts to smear the three gorges dam project are part of a tradition older than the Internet. Of course, the human rights watch was all over that propaganda.
Good.
The land under your house is owned by the Indigenous people you stole it from. So while you may “own” the structure, when Indigenous law is restored after the illegitimate occupation falls, you will be told to GTFO.
That’s incorrect.
Indigenous people as a general idea did not believe that land could be owned by an individual due to viewing the Earth as one’s relative, requiring respect and care, as are all the animals and plant life the land supports. Judeo-Christian religions, likely along with many other religions that I haven’t studied from Eurasia and Africa, view land as being able to be subjugated like cattle or sheep.
This is unlikely to change until climate change and its disasters convince people that they need to actually take care of the earth.
you’re right, spending half your paycheck on rent for your entire life is preferable to a tax on the proceeds of the sale of your property. very big brain there.
What is owning the land anyways?
How long is the lease for?
70 year lease, renewable via application.
Don’t use facts. It upsets the edgelords
This isn’t upsetting anyone, though. Communists understand that the home ownership in China isn’t the same as it is in the west, our point is that that’s a good thing and is part of why their housing rates are much higher.
Yes, really it’s the worst of both worlds. In the western sense of the word, there aren’t any homeowners in China. They have to pay the premium of ownership for the privilege of still having a landlord that can evict them or demand extra payment without any legal recourse for the tenant whatsoever.
China killed tons of landlords, now the people own the land. This is just cope.
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Yes, the people own the land, China is socialist. Not sure what your racist non-sequitor is supposed to be doing here.
racist non-sequitor
AFAIK there’s nothing racist about Winnie the Pooh, but feel free to give your thoughts on the topic here.
さよなら (toodles)
70% of China’s millennials are Americans, Canadians and homeowners? Something’s not right…
As nice as it sounds a ton of ppl are still on the streets on both sides
Even tho one has ghost cities
Not really, the PRC has incredibly low unhoused rates, and the fact that they build cities anticipating future demand is part of why that happens.
Neither has ghost cities, but one has ghost towns in the southwest and the rust belt.
Mb i meant towns
Where source?
Wikipedia and chinese news channels?
Wikipedia, the bastion of objectivity on everything remotely political or controversial.
No URLs = didn’t happen
As for homelessness both sides will spout nonsense about it being fake while social sites like reddit and douyin show otherwise
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china, being a dictatorship of the proletariat and having an actually-working participatory democratic process, has its press in the hands of the people. western countries, being dictatorships of the bourgeoisie, have their press in the hands of a few billionaires, and somehow according to shitlibs that makes it “free and fair” lmfao
“china ranked a senseless brutal dictatorship according to their enemies”, nice try.
your so called land of the free has the largest prison population in the planet period. you guys are literally getting the gestapo to kill innocent bystanders on the streets while calling yourselves a democracy.
you guys could really use learning from socialists and arresting some of your fascistic “journalists” and politicians peddling genocide on so called “dictatorships” you know nothing about abroad. maybe then you can have affordable housing.
lmfao a western-backed “freedom index” is not a substitution for media literacy, nor does it excuse you from providing literally any material evidence to support your argument.
Also, do you want to explain why Israel is ranked at 112; 50 places above Venezuela and Palestine; and why Saudi fuckin Arabia is right there between VZ and PA? Seems to me like this “freedom index” doesn’t correlate very well with democracy or human rights, much less evidence-based journalism or state transparency.
- literal straight facts presented in OP
- user arrives and starts speaking of foreign propagandists arriving
- without missing a beat, same user starts repeating blatant propaganda that doesn’t even address facts stated in OP but amounts to “bad country no freedoms!”
It never fails, if you post something positive about any of the countries on the “bad-guy” list of enemies of the US, you’ll get these pathetic fed bots and/or dronies swarming in, whinging and bleating and stinking up the thread with US state department talking points, western state funded media links, or other such obvious propaganda. It’s tiresome and embarrassing to watch.
Ah, the same Reporters Without Borders gaslighting the world about journalist deaths in Gaza?
You know how it’s frustrating when far right reactionaries roll up in lib spaces on reddit spewing propaganda the sources of which they haven’t investigated critically? That’s you. You’re doing that here. Please stop.
Amazing, capitalist press saying capitalist press is limited in China and that’s “scary.”
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.world users acting like .world users
Not that it is true that they are just tiny boxes… But even if it were true. That’s the difference between China and the US isn’t it?
One provides at least a “box” for everyone.
One provides a big home with a yard with a white picket fence around it for some, but leaves others living in the streets.
Do you really prefer the last one? So many people in the US would be happy with a box at this point.
Their comment was removed but if they’re referring to the tiny boxes I think they are (known as coffin homes), that’s actually in Hong Kong which is notably still very capitalist.
Not even just left to the streets. Many cities are death marching the homeless around, arresting, terrorizing, and stealing personal property of the homeless every step of the way.
https://projects.propublica.org/impact-of-homeless-sweeps-lost-belongings/
The freezing homeless people you pass every day in glorious freedomland would love one of those.
