cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/64896415
For additional context, here’s Brian’s previous blog post about the first preview release of Xfwl4, where he describes his history with Xfce and the sponsorship.
https://www.spurint.org/journal/2026/06/xfwl4s-first-preview-release
Seems very reasonable. I found my new home in labwc, maybe I’ll try this out once it gets stable release.
Using AI for frontend designs is a bad idea too? Or discussing architecture with it? Or getting code checked with it?
Remember, its ethical as long as you close your eyes during the act.
Pretty levelheaded opinion, using it mostly for code analysis and review seems like a good idea. Personally I draw the line at using services like Claude, but I’ve been trying to do this kind of task with local models and haven’t figured it out yet, run into issues with context limits. I like Xfce and will keep using it.
Well that explains the strange bug I started encountering in xfce recently. I guess I’ll be spending tomorrow researching DEs, though I’ll probably end up just using TDE or maybe CDE.
EDIT: clarified that the bug is in xfce, not xfwl.
That may be something else if you’re not currently using the Wayland compositor, which I think is still in alpha.
I’m still using xfce; after running into problems with Wayland the three times I tried it, I decided Wayland isn’t really for me. (In fairness one of those was nvidia being nvidia, but the other two are what I consider design deficiencies in Wayland itself)
Bear in mind that each desktop environment has its own implementation of Wayland, meaning each can offer vastly different user experiences. Gnome and KDE currently have the most polished and integrated Wayland compositors, and are the least likely to have any noticeable issues compared to X11, except for perhaps a few edge cases that have yet to be worked on.
Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce all still use experimental/buggy Wayland compositors, so if any of those desktop environments were the ones you experienced issues with Wayland on, I wouldn’t let that color your expectations of Wayland itself.
Gnome and KDE currently have the most polished and integrated Wayland compositors, and are the least likely to have any noticeable issues compared to X11
made up “fact”
Both KDE and Gnome have significantly more developers on hand to contribute toward implementing their own wayland compositors, and on recent versions, their wayland implementations have worked very well for me, even on Nvidia hardware, which I couldn’t say just a few years ago.
In comparison; Cinnamon’s Wayland backend is only just now becoming usable for most average tasks, Xfce’s effort is the focus of this post, which has only just gotten to an alpha state (still not ready at all for an average user or for distros to adopt as the default), and MATE has no developers on the project who have the necessary skills to make a Wayland compositor, so they are instead trying to integrate the Wayfire Wayland Window Manager instead.
This trips up a lot of people, you’re exactly right. Wayland on KDE, especially on a more up to date distros like Fedora or a rolling distro is great.
Boycott of the Linux kernel when?
This post is not about the Linux Kernel.
Linux kernel devs use AI. This post is clearly that XFCE and Brian Tarricone are bad because AI bad. It is therefore hypocritical for commenters in this thread to continue using the Linux kernel if they are going to apply this standard consistently.
Yeah, but with Linux Kernel there is no choice. So people who are against AI can be unhappy with Linux Kernel as well but they only can choose to use alternative to Xfce but not to Linux Kernel. For now they can express their annoyance about it being allowed in kernel and hope that some day policy gets changed there as well. I don’t see any moral inconsistency here.
FreeBSD?
AFAIK, they are wisely not accepting AI code contributions over licensing concerns.
The issue is the lack of software support overall. It’s possible to use BSD, but quite limiting.
Haiku OS also decided against accepting AI code for the same reasoning (though that is even more limited, and doesn’t support a wide range of hardware, I believe).
Doesn’t seem to be full-featured alternative for desktops:
I guess it can be hard if possible at all to use apps like Blender, Krita, etc. Also, I’m getting quite used to Portage and Gentoo FreeBSD project is obsolete and unsupported now so it would be very risky to try to run it with FreeBSD kernel.
It is still offtopic.
If it starts getting LLM generated code. Right now, it’s not bad.
Well, that’s sad. Who knows what potential unattributed plagiarism landmines are part of it then…
Not just that, but also think of all the unforeseen zero days and other types of vulnerabilities people are gonna be dealing with until a real coder comes in to fix the mess left behind.
Straight into the trash
So what? As long as they do proper QA, using AI is fine.
I use Claude Code with the Fable model too. It is pretty good. It still does hallucinate once in a while. And it still does logical fallacies sometimes. But I mitigate that by using the natural neuronal network in my head to analyzing the generated code (and yes, I am the bottleneck).
It doesn’t hallucinate because it’s not a living thing.
It also doesn’t do logical fallacies because it’s incapable of reasoning or any kind of thinking at all.
Stop anthropomorphising LLMs.
Besides the potential risk of unknowable copyright infringement and the dangers that poses to FLOSS projects as I mentioned in another comment here:
Simply using an AI that’s run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEO’s who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
This virtue signaling needs to stop. Yes, the implications for AI are extremely dangerous and foolhardly. Taking out the pitchforks on Brian, an extremely talented and well regarded engineer in the FOSS world, is completely missing the point. It’s akin to blaming drivers of gas vehicles for global warming. The impetus for change are on the systems that put these things in place, not a FOSS dev building a WM. The incentive structure of limitless growth at all costs in the IT sector and the unfettered power projection of capital are to blame here. Until you’re willing to do something to stand up to that, then we’re all just waving our dicks in the wind here. Posting is not praxis.
We get it, you correctly arrived at the conclusion AI is bad. Welcome to the club. Brian Tarricone is a professional and I have no reservations of the quality of this code. You might as well boycott the linux kernel because guess what, AI generated code is in there too.
Nah, fuck Brian. He’s an AI using twat. No care for the environment, people, or IP that’s been stolen.
This AI apologizing needs to stop. Yes, the implications for AI are dangerous and foolhardy. Full stop.
How easy it is to have maximalist positions on the internet, where they never have to come into contact with reality.
Why should I take what you have to say seriously when you can’t even be bothered to read the entirety of my post where I agree AI is bad and this doesn’t make it go away
I suppose you’ll be moving off of Linux then, as the kernel devs have made their stance on AI quite clear.
Classic “it doesn’t affect me” (yet), so it’s fine. Maybe you’ll change your tune when you run out of drinkable water because data centers are pumping it on top of climate change.
How on Earth could you derive “I don’t give a shit” from “stand up to systems of oppression, don’t castigate individuals”? Do your eyes even work?
This type of name and shaming just doesn’t scale. You can’t recycle your way out of climate change. This type of thinking places the responsibility on the individual, who by very nature is powerless and who’s individual actions have essentially no effect on outcome.
These types of sentiments don’t scale well into change, but it certainly allows the person making the post to feel good and to let others know they think the right things.
Refusing to use the tools that profit the very thing we want to stop is part of standing up to it, how is that not obvious?
Use of literally any electronic or battery-operated device on the planet uses metals sourced from child and/or forced labor somewhere in the world. Unless you’re prepared to move off the grid and live in the woods, these type of arguments at higher levels are endlessly pointless IMO.
It’s definitely worth buying used wherever possible, and to repair electronics whenever possible to avoid unnecessary consumption (part of why Right to Repair is so important). Similarly, it’s quite beneficial to switch to plant-based meats to avoid both unnecessary animal suffering and the carbon emissions and resource wastage that goes with industrial animal production (especially as those resources become more and more scarce due to poor crop yields and drought from climate change).
It’s often not possible to do either of those things 100%, such as it not being possible to be completely vegan/vegetarian due to a family member that isn’t on board with it, but it’s still beneficial to do what they can, even if it’s only 20, 30, or 50%.
Corporate AI usage, on the other hand, is one of those things that truly is completely avoidable with virtually no effort, and was something we all got along fine without just a few years ago. There are even more ethical self-hosted or decentralized non-corporate alternatives.
Someone deciding to ignore the harmful externalities of corporate AI is making a choice to prioritize their own convenience over helping prevent our planet from becoming extremely unpleasant for billions of people and animals to live on, or the financing of a fascist surveillance state.
We’re not talking about you, you can do whatever you want. I’m talking about publicly naming and shaming developers for using what is now a widely accepted tool.
The developer made this public post of their own volition, presumably for others to read and make up their own mind on. It’s not naming and shaming to alert others their DE is going to be AI coded in the future, or to point out the potential downfalls of the project adopting AI.
You created an account a few minutes ago just to say individuals shouldn’t bear any responsibility whatsoever, and worse, that advocating for reducing the problem in a meaningful way is virtue signalling?
Your comment just so happened to grasp my attention. There’s simply no need to resort to ad hominem.
Is the BP oil spill my fault because I drive a car to work?
Where is the ad hominem? If you’re going to pretend to speak Latin, at least know what the fucking words mean, you absolute potato.
And in case it wasn’t clear, that was an example of ad hominem.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
The above commenter was calling into question my character because I had just created my account today. The definition of ad hominem I’m familar with:
“Attacking a person’s character or motivations rather than a position or argument.”
The commenter seems to imply that because I created my account recently, that my argument is therefore somehow not valid. I would consider that the be an attack on my character or motivation, rather than addressing my position. Would you agree or no? May have been a bit of an editorial stretch on my part, but it certainly doesn’t call for you actually calling me names and insulting me. I’m just here for some banter. Your comment is obviously malicious, and I think you’re better than that.
Edit: yep, downvote and move on. Exactly what I thought. Classic potato behavior.
All of us can try to take steps to reduce our fossil fuel use, either by trying to drive less, using public transport if available, or using an e-bike if viable. Individually the contribution is small, but collectively it can add up to help reduce demand, thus reducing the financial incentive to invest in oil or drill for more.
Of course we can, but that’s not how history works. People do what they will do based on their conditioning and material conditions. Of course not always, but enough where we can derive conclusions. Scolding and finger wagging isn’t going to fix this problem. If you think one sliver of the population of Earth gives one single solitary fuck about reducing their carbon footprint, I have a bridge to sell you.
Look, I respect you and your take, I’m not trying to be an asshole. I just genuinely don’t think your approach is a viable method of achieving what you’re saying.
Of course we can, but that’s not how history works.
History has shown that it does, in fact, work like that.
“admits to” makes it sounds like it’s something horrible
If this never happened, my day would’ve been 2% better.
Still, though. I frowned for at least two or three minutes.
I’m certainly not pleased with it.
It is.
Nope, you’re supposed to run your free project in a manner that we approve of only, please.
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.
It’s putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
It could also simply be seen as a bad look no matter any risks, potentially the taking of code snippets from other projects that may have a significant code length, without attributing them properly. I find it sad.
If somebody proposed to build you a house with slave labor free of charge, would you be happy about it?
Since the answer is quite obvious, we can clearly state that even if something is free and beneficial for you, there is a line which you shouldn’t cross.
That out of the way, we now have to figure out where to draw this line. It just so happens that for a lot of people using a technology that actively destroys our environment, makes every computiational device more expensive, literally makes it’s users dumber, and is built with very ethically questionable methods lies beyond the line.
Oh, if that’s not enough, LLMs can kill you if you are psychologically unstable.
actively destroys our environment, makes every computiational device more expensive, literally makes it’s users dumber, and is built with very ethically questionable methods
you mean like the metals mined by children and forced labor that’s in every electronic device and battery on the planet? so you’re talking to us from a cup and string in the woods then, right?
Despite still not getting why XFCE still haven’t moved on from GTK and the GNOME shenanigans on it - to the E libraries so XFCE and Enlightenment do a Dragon Ball Z type of fusion and become the one DE to rule them all, and thinking that the XFCE ui is a bit ass at some places for reasons I can’t understand (like having to scroll at some pages on their settings and the misaligned randomly placed stuff in there), I still have respect for their long-time devs and the work they’ve poured on their project over the years. Pretty sure the common sense will prevail in this case.
Because enlightenment libraries are pure running diarrhea level of utterly horrendous, actually horrifyingly bad code.
There is a super famous “Daily WTF” post from a Samsung employee literally forced to work with Enlightenment libraries (back when Samsung was doing TizenOS) that would be an awesome read, although it’s behind a login gate nowadays.
GNOME’s stuff are actually pretty easy to work with
The internet archive comes to the rescue, here’s a link to the rant.
https://web.archive.org/web/20230317214426/https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened
The only reason people still use XFCE is because of the chicago95 theme.
I’m pulling this out of my ass but there’s some good shit in there so I might be right.
XFCE is lightweight (low system requirements and resource usage) and stable (in the sense it does not do crazy changes, it stays relatively calm). And the modular approach by design also speaks to a lot of people. And also its from usability standpoint easy to use without getting in your way, but still customizable; kind of like KDE meets old GNOME. Its definitely more reasons to use XFCE than just a theme.
It’s all about DesktopPal 97 for me!
(Unironically do love that theme, but more seriously, I use Xfce on a particularly weak laptop with only 4gb of RAM, where it works as a good compromise between being lightweight yet not needing the configuration that Window Managers need if they don’t come pre setup from the distro itself)
