Not going to defend any rapists here, the statements are true, but there must be done recognition of placing yourself in an extremely dangerous position by your own choices.
Still doesn’t excuse rape, by any stretch, but bad decisions are still bad decisions.
Being inebriated around dozens to hundreds of strangers who themselves are consuming mind altering substances isn’t exactly a safe situation. Take the fun of it being a party away from it and just zoom out with that context. Nobody has their full faculties.
I’ll pile on with there is no defense of predators, but you can make choices about the environment that you put yourself in and the state that you are in when you go there.
I’m a dude and I wouldn’t feel safe going to a party naked, drunk or not.
I’m also not prone to going to house parties, or getting drunk/doing drugs, so I might be an outlier here.
To be blunt, unless you’re in a context where it’s normalized, being naked in any situation is probably an unsafe activity, regardless of gender, or the environment.
The obvious exceptions here being private or secured spaces, including bathrooms, changing rooms/locker rooms, and other public facilities like showers and such. Any medical situation. Also, any nudist areas… Probably more that I’m not thinking about.
Just because, as a man, I’m not as likely to be raped, doesn’t mean it can’t happen, or even that it’s unlikely to happen. I have no doubt that every community including the LGBTQIA+ communities, have some rapists in their ranks. Not many, surely, but not zero either. So there’s a nontrivial chance of me, as a guy, going to a house party drunk, doing drugs, then getting raped, either by a man, or a woman.
This is a human problem.
At the same time, I recognize that women are raped in far higher numbers than men, or at least that’s what the statistics show, so there’s extra risk there based on the statistics alone.
That doesn’t make it safe for a dude to go and do the same thing.
The obvious exceptions here being private or secured spaces, including bathrooms, changing rooms/locker rooms, and other public facilities like showers and such. Any medical situation. Also, any nudist areas
Those are dangerous for women, too.
You’re missing the point that even naked and doing drugs, no one should be raped. It’s not an invitation.
The danger comes from others willing to take advantage of someone in that situation, not the situation itself.
When we talk about sexual violence, the focus too often falls on what survivors did, where they were, or whether they reported. But rape happens because someone chooses to violate another person’s consent.
According to FBI crime data, an average of 107,418 U.S. men are the perpetrators of reported rape each year.
Each year, an average of 5,510 female perpetrators are reported for rape, according to law enforcement reporting.
I don’t see how I’m diminishing the facts about rape at all. It’s a horrendous crime that shouldn’t happen.
But if you wish to keep babbling to yourself about it for some unknown goal, have at it.
I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that rape isn’t a big deal, or anyone who doesn’t think that is a bad thing… Apart from rapists I guess…
So I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here? You seem to be lost in the midst of about 13 different conversations about this and I think you’ve lost the plot.
I think the “human problem” is another problem entirely, and imo handwaves the fact that there is one very specific gendered dynamic where this is a problem, to the point where we in the comments are going like “well obviously there are going to be some rapists in mixed company, and given the opportunity to rape…”
That is rape culture right up in here, and there are things we can do to mitigate it.
It’s like both cars and cyclists can injure pedestrians but there are reasons why one of these is much more prevalent. Bad analogy but hopefully you can look past it to see my point.
I’m not denying, nor am I trying to deny that the scales are not balanced in terms of perpetrators and victims of rape.
Nor do I mean to say, nor imply, that there are not groups of rapists, and people who are okay with them, or support them.
I also equally recognise that the number of people in those groups is relatively small in comparison to the overall population.
That doesn’t and shouldn’t imply that I don’t think something should be done.
The problem is anyone who is complacent with the act, who perpetrates the act, anyone who covers up the act, and any judge, jury, or court, that would deny someone justice in the face of evidence of the act, even if that evidence is simply the victims side of the story.
I also think anyone using an accusation of rape to smear someone or get them in trouble, when no crime has been committed, should be severely punished for creating a false report.
In my opinion, everyone should be doing everything to find, report, and/or otherwise stop rapists at all times, in every circumstance. It should be the duty of every individual in society to put these people in jail, or stop them by whatever means are necessary. To me, the only ones that are not committed to this, are rapists, sympathisers, or enablers, all of which should be given the same punishment.
It’s not up to me to say what that punishment should be. That’s up to society. I am not a rapist, nor am I a victim, so I have no basis to judge what a fair punishment should be, nor do I have any stake in making that punishment any less severe than what the victims need that would best help with their recovery from such a trauma.
I also think anyone using an accusation of rape to smear someone or get them in trouble, when no crime has been committed, should be severely punished for creating a false report.
You just had to elevate false reports to the same level as actual rape, didn’t you?
The point continues to be missed: why is it unsafe?
No one disputes that that situation is unsafe. People are saying that it’s unsafe because of rapists. Pointing out that you shouldn’t do unsafe things is asinine when the point being made is that people shouldn’t act in a fashion that makes them a danger to others.
Ignoring that the hazard is due to the choices of live humans with agency and entirely placing the agency on the victim is the crux of the problem.
Flip it around: you shouldn’t be inebriated in a situation where there are hundreds of people you can hurt.
The victim has no control over where the hazard goes. The rapist chooses where it’s dangerous for the victim to be. Big party? Dangerous if there’s a rapist there. Intimate gathering of friends? Dangerous if one of them is a rapist.
Rapists are not lightning. They don’t randomly strike in hazardous situations beyond anyone’s control where the best advice is “don’t stand under a big tree or you might get raped by lightning”.
They’re humans committing a crime against another person.
I like to analogize victim blaming to blaming someone who was hit on the head with hammers for not wearing a helmet. Like, yes, wearing a helmet would make you safer, but these conversations always get derailed into talking about helmets and not really asking why are people hitting others on the head with hammers?
You’re not wrong. It’s further than that though, because there are accidental head-hammerings (if we want to get all OSHA I suppose we’d say there are head hammerings from systemic negligence, but thats the same on an individual level), but you just don’t have an accidental rape.
I still like the “If you ride a bike and get run over, it’s the drivers fault. But you should still wear a helmet” metaphor. But I believe some people think it’s a defense of rapists, which it’s not.
It’s not my fault you can’t connect the dots here.
You’re still blaming victims for not wearing helmets when they’re hit by the driver instead of placing the blame on the driver for hitting the cyclist.
The graveyards are full of people who were not at fault, and/or in the right with their actions.
As you say, the driver is (or at least should be) at fault. But wear a helmet anyways.
That metaphor has legs. It applies to all kinds of things, from personal protection equipment, to situational hazards, to environmental hazards…
Like the guy climbing up on the umpteenth floor of a high-rise during its construction where that floor doesn’t have outside walls, or guard rails or anything… He’s not planning on falling, but he should wear fall arrest gear anyways.
I don’t plan on getting hit by a car when I direct traffic to a parking area, but I still wear a high vis vest and stand out of the path where cars are going to drive…
It’s not about blaming the victim at all. Victims are victims. But before you become a victim, you can take steps to avoid becoming one. Once you are a victim, anyone pointing out what you could have done to avoid becoming a victim, is an asshole.
I don’t plan on getting hit by a car when I direct traffic to a parking area, but I still wear a high vis vest and stand out of the path where cars are going to drive…
I didn’t know rapists were trying to get somewhere else and didn’t see their victim before they shoved their penis inside one of their orifices.
Another approach for preventing sexual assault is to learn strategies for intervening. Bystander intervention programs emphasize the importance of stopping bad behavior before it escalates, teach specific skills for intervening, and remind people that everyone has a responsibility to prevent sexual violence.
Students who participate in such programs are more confident in their ability to intervene and more willing to do so. Most importantly, rates of sexual violence are markedly lower on campuses that have implemented these programs. For example, one study found that experiences of sexual harassment and stalking were 11% lower and that instances of unwanted sexual activity with women who were too drunk or high to stop them were as much as 17% lower.
It’s tempting to read about the Cornell case and assume the apparent inaction in the face of problematic behavior is uniquely a problem at one college, or only with members of fraternities, or only with college students. But the reality is that pretty much everyone has been in situations where they’ve seen potentially problematic behavior and failed to speak up.
Understanding the very normal psychological factors that lead people to misperceive what others are actually thinking and feeling—and learning specific strategies for intervening—can make a real difference.
Humans are hairless apes. You can acknowledge that the rapist at a frat party made a mistake, while also acknowledging that the naked woman made a bad mistake of entering the hairless ape enclosure in that state.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where every hairless ape had perfect self-control, was raised with absolutely enlightened beliefs, and never let alcohol or drugs impair their judgment. It makes perfect sense to punish any hairless ape that breaks a law.
OTOH, if you’re the parents of a young woman, you should teach her to be very careful when choosing to enter the hairless ape enclosure because humanity hasn’t yet reached a stage where that’s always safe.
OTOH, if you’re the parents of a young woman, you should teach her to be very careful when choosing to enter the hairless ape enclosure because humanity hasn’t yet reached a stage where that’s always safe.
Perhaps if you define better what it means to be careful? Most people’s definition of being careful against rapists (avoiding after dark, avoiding creepy looking guys) is just completely wrong and gives false sense of safety and superiority to survivors.
Looking at data, how rape happens in the most ordinary of situations by seemingly most ordinary of people. I don’t think there is anything you could really do to prevent rape other than not talking to humans whatsoever.
Perhaps if you define better what it means to be careful?
For instance, don’t show up at a party drunk and nude, and then take drugs while you’re there. I’m not saying that you’re never going to be raped as long as you do that. But, that’s a commonsense way to avoid a certain kind of rape.
You can acknowledge that the rapist at a frat party made a mistake
Woah. Stop right there. A mistake is an action taken in error.
Those frat boys deliberately raped that girl. Their actions were not mistakes, they were deliberate criminal acts.
Do not confuse the two. This is the difference between accidentally discharging a firearm and taking aim and firing.
OTOH, if you’re the parents of a young woman, you should teach her to be very careful when choosing to enter the hairless ape enclosure because humanity hasn’t yet reached a stage where that’s always safe.
You mean the entire fucking world?
Are you seriously advocating that women should stay within the four walls of their own home? (Which also isn’t safe for women, by the way - a lot of rape is done at the hands of family members.)
I don’t hate the idea, but that infringes on the basic civil rights in most countries.
I don’t think this should be exclusive to Men. Women should be killing rapists in self defense, and that should be ok.
My main issue is whether the person doing the killing is correct in their assumption of guilt regarding the perpetrator (or accused).
But this is why we don’t have this kind of martial law. Everyone is entitled to be judged by a jury of their “peers”. Even low life scum like murderers and rapists.
To be honest, I consider rape to be more severe than murder, because now that person has to live the rest of their life, permanently changed from the experience. To me, that makes it a form of torture. Dead people don’t have to live with their trauma.
Not to diminish how severe of a crime murder is, at all. It’s easily a close second, but IMO, rape is top of my list in terms of how heinous it is.
Not going to defend any rapists here, the statements are true, but there must be done recognition of placing yourself in an extremely dangerous position by your own choices.
Still doesn’t excuse rape, by any stretch, but bad decisions are still bad decisions.
Yeah rapists should be careful about placing themselves in positions where they can rape someone. Glad we agree.
100% this.
Very yes.
I get how you mean this, but it’s so fucked up that a house party is “an extremely dangerous position” to be in.
Being inebriated around dozens to hundreds of strangers who themselves are consuming mind altering substances isn’t exactly a safe situation. Take the fun of it being a party away from it and just zoom out with that context. Nobody has their full faculties.
I’ll pile on with there is no defense of predators, but you can make choices about the environment that you put yourself in and the state that you are in when you go there.
Can a man go to a party naked and drunk without it being unsafe? Mostly yes? Then it seems to be a problem with rape culture, doesn’t it.
Consent is consent is consent. And if men respected consent, we wouldn’t need to have this conversation at all.
I’m a dude and I wouldn’t feel safe going to a party naked, drunk or not.
I’m also not prone to going to house parties, or getting drunk/doing drugs, so I might be an outlier here.
To be blunt, unless you’re in a context where it’s normalized, being naked in any situation is probably an unsafe activity, regardless of gender, or the environment. The obvious exceptions here being private or secured spaces, including bathrooms, changing rooms/locker rooms, and other public facilities like showers and such. Any medical situation. Also, any nudist areas… Probably more that I’m not thinking about.
Just because, as a man, I’m not as likely to be raped, doesn’t mean it can’t happen, or even that it’s unlikely to happen. I have no doubt that every community including the LGBTQIA+ communities, have some rapists in their ranks. Not many, surely, but not zero either. So there’s a nontrivial chance of me, as a guy, going to a house party drunk, doing drugs, then getting raped, either by a man, or a woman.
This is a human problem.
At the same time, I recognize that women are raped in far higher numbers than men, or at least that’s what the statistics show, so there’s extra risk there based on the statistics alone. That doesn’t make it safe for a dude to go and do the same thing.
Those are dangerous for women, too.
You’re missing the point that even naked and doing drugs, no one should be raped. It’s not an invitation.
The danger comes from others willing to take advantage of someone in that situation, not the situation itself.
You and I agree, as far as I can tell.
I think we both disagree with this statement (which spurred my comment):
The answer is no. This isn’t really a gender problem. It’s a rape problem. Just don’t fucking rape people.
Please stop diminishing the facts about rape.
You’re getting caught up in the nitty gritty details of the meme scenario without looking at the big picture.
Yes, men and women are raped. It does no good to pretend like they’re being raped in a vacuum by some faceless entity we can’t identify.
You seem very much like a troll.
I don’t see how I’m diminishing the facts about rape at all. It’s a horrendous crime that shouldn’t happen.
But if you wish to keep babbling to yourself about it for some unknown goal, have at it.
I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that rape isn’t a big deal, or anyone who doesn’t think that is a bad thing… Apart from rapists I guess…
So I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here? You seem to be lost in the midst of about 13 different conversations about this and I think you’ve lost the plot.
I think the “human problem” is another problem entirely, and imo handwaves the fact that there is one very specific gendered dynamic where this is a problem, to the point where we in the comments are going like “well obviously there are going to be some rapists in mixed company, and given the opportunity to rape…”
That is rape culture right up in here, and there are things we can do to mitigate it.
It’s like both cars and cyclists can injure pedestrians but there are reasons why one of these is much more prevalent. Bad analogy but hopefully you can look past it to see my point.
I like you, you can come to my house parties.
I’m not denying, nor am I trying to deny that the scales are not balanced in terms of perpetrators and victims of rape.
Nor do I mean to say, nor imply, that there are not groups of rapists, and people who are okay with them, or support them.
I also equally recognise that the number of people in those groups is relatively small in comparison to the overall population.
That doesn’t and shouldn’t imply that I don’t think something should be done.
The problem is anyone who is complacent with the act, who perpetrates the act, anyone who covers up the act, and any judge, jury, or court, that would deny someone justice in the face of evidence of the act, even if that evidence is simply the victims side of the story.
I also think anyone using an accusation of rape to smear someone or get them in trouble, when no crime has been committed, should be severely punished for creating a false report.
In my opinion, everyone should be doing everything to find, report, and/or otherwise stop rapists at all times, in every circumstance. It should be the duty of every individual in society to put these people in jail, or stop them by whatever means are necessary. To me, the only ones that are not committed to this, are rapists, sympathisers, or enablers, all of which should be given the same punishment.
It’s not up to me to say what that punishment should be. That’s up to society. I am not a rapist, nor am I a victim, so I have no basis to judge what a fair punishment should be, nor do I have any stake in making that punishment any less severe than what the victims need that would best help with their recovery from such a trauma.
You just had to elevate false reports to the same level as actual rape, didn’t you?
Jesus Christ.
I’m a man and no, I would not feel safe arriving at a part drunk & naked & doing drugs.
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There are ways to create safe communities without police.
The point continues to be missed: why is it unsafe?
No one disputes that that situation is unsafe. People are saying that it’s unsafe because of rapists. Pointing out that you shouldn’t do unsafe things is asinine when the point being made is that people shouldn’t act in a fashion that makes them a danger to others.
Ignoring that the hazard is due to the choices of live humans with agency and entirely placing the agency on the victim is the crux of the problem.
Flip it around: you shouldn’t be inebriated in a situation where there are hundreds of people you can hurt.
The victim has no control over where the hazard goes. The rapist chooses where it’s dangerous for the victim to be. Big party? Dangerous if there’s a rapist there. Intimate gathering of friends? Dangerous if one of them is a rapist.
Rapists are not lightning. They don’t randomly strike in hazardous situations beyond anyone’s control where the best advice is “don’t stand under a big tree or you might get raped by lightning”.
They’re humans committing a crime against another person.
I like to analogize victim blaming to blaming someone who was hit on the head with hammers for not wearing a helmet. Like, yes, wearing a helmet would make you safer, but these conversations always get derailed into talking about helmets and not really asking why are people hitting others on the head with hammers?
More like walking under a ladder with a bag of hammers on it. Not your fault but a known risk of the action.
You’re not wrong. It’s further than that though, because there are accidental head-hammerings (if we want to get all OSHA I suppose we’d say there are head hammerings from systemic negligence, but thats the same on an individual level), but you just don’t have an accidental rape.
Just depends on the party.
The situation described is only dangerous if there is a dangerous person there. Rape victims are not responsible for being raped. Rapists are.
Yeah, uh, not going to criticize you here, but have you tried not missing the point?
Never.
Why are the situations/positions dangerous?
Because showing up drunk and naked, then doing drugs, is generally risky behavior?
Regardless of gender, unless you’re at a nudist resort, surrounded by trusted individuals, there is risk to being in this situation.
Even sober, showing up naked to any place where nudity is not the norm, carries risk.
Where does the danger come from?
Do you think you’re doing something?
I’m asking a question. Do you have an answer to my question?
Where does the danger come from in that situation?
Alcohol, drugs, poor life choices…
Ok, you’re talking about drinking too much and ODing?
What other dangers might we be talking about here? Where does that danger come from?
Nah. You aren’t allowed to play with me anymore.
I’m done.
I don’t know what your point is, or why you’re taking the psychology approach with it, but I’m not going to play anymore.
Rape is bad.
Doing dangerous things is dangerous.
Putting yourself in risky situations is generally a bad decision.
I have no further comment for you. Go away.
Sure it’s risky doing drugs, you might OD, might have a bad trip, might fall and injure yourself.
You won’t get raped unless there’s a rapist.
Facts.
I still like the “If you ride a bike and get run over, it’s the drivers fault. But you should still wear a helmet” metaphor. But I believe some people think it’s a defense of rapists, which it’s not.
What we were wearing at the time of our attack was not an invitation for violence.
Do you think the lesson in that metaphor is that I think women should be wearing helmets…?
It’s not meant literally.
It’s not my fault you can’t connect the dots here.
You’re still blaming victims for not wearing helmets when they’re hit by the driver instead of placing the blame on the driver for hitting the cyclist.
This isn’t productive so I’m going to stop responding to your bad faith bait.
Try rereading the metaphor. Because I directly addressed who’s at fault.
The graveyards are full of people who were not at fault, and/or in the right with their actions.
As you say, the driver is (or at least should be) at fault. But wear a helmet anyways. That metaphor has legs. It applies to all kinds of things, from personal protection equipment, to situational hazards, to environmental hazards…
Like the guy climbing up on the umpteenth floor of a high-rise during its construction where that floor doesn’t have outside walls, or guard rails or anything… He’s not planning on falling, but he should wear fall arrest gear anyways.
I don’t plan on getting hit by a car when I direct traffic to a parking area, but I still wear a high vis vest and stand out of the path where cars are going to drive…
It’s not about blaming the victim at all. Victims are victims. But before you become a victim, you can take steps to avoid becoming one. Once you are a victim, anyone pointing out what you could have done to avoid becoming a victim, is an asshole.
I didn’t know rapists were trying to get somewhere else and didn’t see their victim before they shoved their penis inside one of their orifices.
think of it like the point of house locks, its a deterrent so the criminal goes after someone else and nit you.
All of these metaphors are assuming rape is inevitable and we should focus on mitigating the risk of rape instead of focusing on diminishing rapists.
The fault lies entirely with the person committing rape against someone else.
individuals can’t meaningfully prevent others from being rapists, they can make it less likely they get raped.
You dont talk to your friends about consent?
How confident are you that your friends are sfae people if you dont talk about it?
I know which of my friends are UNsafe people and that’s good enough for me
No, stop. We should not and can not only focus on rape victims and what they should do to avoid being raped.
People can and do influence others from being rapists. We all take part in our rape culture and we can all examine those beliefs.
What Bystanders Can Do to Stop Sexual Violence
I’m not saying to only focus on the victims, but you shouldn’t only focus on the perpetrators.
Who hurt you?
I don’t think you want to know the honest answer to that question on this topic.
Maybe you’ll think a little harder about the next metaphor you use for rape though.
Humans are hairless apes. You can acknowledge that the rapist at a frat party made a mistake, while also acknowledging that the naked woman made a bad mistake of entering the hairless ape enclosure in that state.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where every hairless ape had perfect self-control, was raised with absolutely enlightened beliefs, and never let alcohol or drugs impair their judgment. It makes perfect sense to punish any hairless ape that breaks a law.
OTOH, if you’re the parents of a young woman, you should teach her to be very careful when choosing to enter the hairless ape enclosure because humanity hasn’t yet reached a stage where that’s always safe.
Perhaps if you define better what it means to be careful? Most people’s definition of being careful against rapists (avoiding after dark, avoiding creepy looking guys) is just completely wrong and gives false sense of safety and superiority to survivors.
Looking at data, how rape happens in the most ordinary of situations by seemingly most ordinary of people. I don’t think there is anything you could really do to prevent rape other than not talking to humans whatsoever.
For instance, don’t show up at a party drunk and nude, and then take drugs while you’re there. I’m not saying that you’re never going to be raped as long as you do that. But, that’s a commonsense way to avoid a certain kind of rape.
Woah. Stop right there. A mistake is an action taken in error.
Those frat boys deliberately raped that girl. Their actions were not mistakes, they were deliberate criminal acts.
Do not confuse the two. This is the difference between accidentally discharging a firearm and taking aim and firing.
You mean the entire fucking world?
Are you seriously advocating that women should stay within the four walls of their own home? (Which also isn’t safe for women, by the way - a lot of rape is done at the hands of family members.)
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I don’t hate the idea, but that infringes on the basic civil rights in most countries.
I don’t think this should be exclusive to Men. Women should be killing rapists in self defense, and that should be ok.
My main issue is whether the person doing the killing is correct in their assumption of guilt regarding the perpetrator (or accused).
But this is why we don’t have this kind of martial law. Everyone is entitled to be judged by a jury of their “peers”. Even low life scum like murderers and rapists.
To be honest, I consider rape to be more severe than murder, because now that person has to live the rest of their life, permanently changed from the experience. To me, that makes it a form of torture. Dead people don’t have to live with their trauma.
Not to diminish how severe of a crime murder is, at all. It’s easily a close second, but IMO, rape is top of my list in terms of how heinous it is.