Counterpoint
Propagandize me bitches
Is this the praxis I keep hearing about?
I still hold out hope that the Anarchists will stop falling for it, and unite for freedom over economics.
Instead of uniting with the Tankies, unite with the AnCaps.
“But they’re not real Anarchists.”
And the Tankies and Totalitarians calling themselves Communists are?
LOL. I knew that’d get downvoted hard. Still had to be said.
Anarchocommunists in shambles.
“We should have One Big Revolution!”
“Noooo! We should have a bunch of itty bitty revolutions!”
“Okay, fine. Let’s do Trotskyism as a compromise.”
“Sure thing brow, just turn around real quick”
all IRL anarchists i ever met are based. can’t think of a single exception rn.
internet western “anarchists” are insufferable, because they are very obviously just libs trying to look cool.
Probably a lot of fake anarchists paid (or duped) to give anarchism a bad name, to give people the wrong idea about what anarchism is, to turn them away from mutual freedom for each and all, back into the arms of daddy corporatarchy government.
Like that malarch in this thread, saying they wanted to kill 37% of everybody, because anarchism. `_`
the cia has done shit like this in the past and i bet they will do it again here, but i doubt lemmy is already being intervened on just yet.
i think we are still on the passionate lib stage of things.
Arguably the dupes.
This might not be what you meant, but I’ve found 90+% of the ‘online left’ regardless of ideology to be far more ultra-left, alienated and toxic than most people on the ground, even including the drama kiddos on college campuses and split rival organizations. To everyone I highly recommend finding people in real life, if possible.
real life leftists are fun as hell to be around. if anyone’s looking for some:
- IWW
- CWA
- Redneck Revolt
I kinda got excited about redneck revolt but their website says they disbanded in 2019.
the national org did but the local groups are still active. probably look for things that say either “redneck revolt” or “john brown society”
there are niches with good people but i get where you are coming from.
i think most leftists are yet to learn how to use the internet effectively. that and they get heavily censored in corporate social media.
Or left it entirely over a decade ago.
Let me be that exception! I think the best way to destroy authoritanism, is to help people become so independent of other’s resources, that they can just decide to opt out of work for good. And there would be no way to strike against them that isn’t blatant force or robbery (Can’t cut their electricity due to bills, can’t cut their food source as they grow their own, passive water generation, technical expertise, no illegal activities, small amount of passive income to cover land tax).
They would still have small vulnerabilities, but it would be quite quite hard to force them and keep them in a toxic workplace, if they can just chill for months or even YEARS, without being forced to work. This will force workplaces to basically suck up to the average employee, increase raises, increase benefits, and oh…abuse would be completely intollerable.
blatant force or robbery
my biggest worry is they do this a lot though and are escalating. fighting back won’t be easy considering they are beefing up police and military forces around the world.
Everyone has limited resources, especially when your source is cut off.
Yeah. Bring on the emancipatory technologies.
All the technologies that can emancipate us, each and all.
Y’know…
All those technologies that are suppressed by capitalists to maintain their crippling extortionate rents that happen to be very polluting too.
And to, oh, y’know, undo all the McCarthyian redscare psyop that conflates anarcho-communism with totalitarian communism and presents capitalism as the system that frees them.
“Ferengi don’t want to end the exploitation. They want to become the exploiters.” – Rom
Would be a lot easier once people stop falling for all the “advertising and marketing”.
Or if someone just decides to provision everybody with spaceships of their own. Each capable of printing another of itself instantly, sustain life, with zero-point energy powered zero-inertia propulsion, safe enough for a 2 year old to fly home. I hear these already exist (for about a century now). Could have not just “disclosure”, but radical provisioning sublimation. Do you have spaceships yet? And the reassurance everybody else does too so they’re not trying to take yours?
I think the best way to destroy authoritanism, is to help people become so independent of other’s resources, that they can just decide to opt out of work for good.
Would you posit that one can prosper once they have become self-reliant by achieving political, economic, and military independence?
They would still have small vulnerabilities, but it would be quite quite hard to force them and keep them in a toxic workplace, if they can just chill for months or even YEARS, without being forced to work.
I mean, in theory, sure. But in practice, you’d need a large labor surplus that was unassailable by settler-colonialist looters. How do you marshal these reserves and defend them adequately?
Yeah, the number one issue is military capabilities, and what I fear, since I can’t and won’t teach them violence. I just hope there will be enough backlash if they are disturbed.
The point isn’t just to be a tough, individualist badass. The idea is that you can only have fair relationships, if there is nothing for others to leverage over you. The moment there’s power dynamics, you introduce corruption. But if someone has to respect you, they can choose to leave the relationship, or compromise with you.
Then you can trade all the surplus, make all the relationships your heart desires, from a clean slate. What they have to figure out, is how to organize and fight themselves if needed.
As opposed to internet communists who are well known for not being insufferable
leftists in general are correct (anarchists and communists alike), a lot of libs are bothered by that.
i think this is the main reason, regardless of how annoying the specific terminally online individual might be.
there’s also difference between being correct and being effective. right wing propaganda machines program people to exist in binaries and young leftists, new initiates i mean, have to break out of that. they have to learn to listen to the problems people are experiencing and talk about how to address those problems rather than fixating on an us/them dichotomy
Have you considered that if leftists are correct, conservatives are too, and that it’s merely a matter of perspective? It seems as though your consideration of libs being bothered may be a case of projection as it bothers you that other perspectives may be worthy of consideration as well.
Da fuq you on about?
See my other reply in the thread.
Yeah. Maybe should cease being played into being against each other.
Unite freedomwards.
No more falling for the terror psyop of each being out to take away your freedoms. Cui bono.
leftists are correct, fascists are wrong. it’s just a matter of accepting it. fuck their murderous perspective because it is making most of our lives objectively worse.
no sane society would even consider letting them take it to their final consequences. let’s see how ours will do.
I think I agree with you, I was merely trying to point out that not all conservatives are fascists. Thinking that way leads to a superiority complex in leftists that may ultimately turn themselves into fascists too.
conservative is an euphemism for fascist at this point. especially on 2025 political climate.
i mean… hating gays, hating leftists, hating immigrants for no good reason and wanting completely deregulated capitalism with a sprinkle of christian fundamentalism and mysogyny and so much nationalism its weird?
I’m not much of a conservative, so no need to try to bait me 😂
But if that was not your intention, carry on!
What exactly does based mean in this context?
it’s ancient internet slang for something cool i guess.
anarcho capitalism!
I’m pretty sure that’s default capitalism.
nono it’s BETTER: https://youtu.be/ktNgVmySQ5k
Ewww no!
If either of them don’t do mutual aid their dead to me.
Commies that say they do mutual aid because of communism I kindly remind them. “You actually do mutual aid because of Kropotkin.”
kropotkin was an anarchist, anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist. i’m talking about libs, not actual anarchists.
And great example that just because you were born to riches, does not mean you have to remain an inegalitarian maintaining the power imbalance keeping the little people down.
Well done Kropotkin.
not all piggies are heartless, and some of them will help us out. shoutout to engels too, and a (small) handful of others.
(I’m probably some ways wrong about this in my lingering naivety [and, so, happy (eager, even) to hear counter-arguments, refutations, educations otherwise], but…)
I see Engels as part responsible for leading Marx astray from listening to Bakunin['s warning] [1].
It’s my impression that younger Marx was much more fervently libertarian along with his economics, and then later stripped the freedom to a mere wishful happenstance footnote in preference for a more purely economics focus, which opened the door to the authoritarians to usurp his work, and turn it into the whole “well then we’ll make them free” and “some are more equal than others” cognitively dissonant perversion.
[1: quintessentially: “We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality,” – Mikhail Bakunin]
imperialism is the defining factor imo that makes a state necessary in such a way. i attribute it to most of the successes of current and past socialist experiments in keeping themselves alive and improving people’s lives in the scorched earth scenario we find ourselves in.
i don’t fundamentally disagree with the anarchist critique of socialism i’ve been exposed to, but i’m living under imperialism and the so called authoritarians hit the nail on the head on what’s needed by how things are imposed upon us and especially how our failed attempts at freedom went.
could probably better ways of putting it, but i’m way too tired right now. i hope to have articulated whatever i wanted to say in a coherent enough way.
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How is a voluntary, non-hierarchical network for sharing resources (non-material included) with the goal of community building and creating alternative governance structures, the same but less effective as using state power to regulate capitalism and provide universal social welfare founded by taxes. Those things are hardly even connected.
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I can think of a few notable differences.
Varies.
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Dude, what? Are you sure you’re in the right instance? Purges? Fuck outta here
So, are you volunteering to be “culled”?
What the fuck is this? What sort of genocidal maniac are you?
This isn’t anarchism, this isn’t a stance informed by theory, this is toxic misanthropy.
How is “kill a third of everyone” getting any upvotes? This is disgusting, you are disgusting. Read some books you derranged maniac.
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Well as long as it’s bounded mass slaughter that’s ok then.
You don’t need to “purge” 37% of the population under anarchy. If one trade union or labor syndicate goes fash, the others will just stop providing resources to them until they either realize being fascist isn’t sustainable or become powerless after being cut off. There’s a much more ethical way of dealing with authoritarians already accounted for in the theory, no violence required.
I have never heard an anarchist speak this way. I don’t want to be left alone, I simply don’t want a class of people who believe they hold authority over me as my superiors. Anarchists shouldn’t be using anyone. A stable anarchy can’t exist as long as people are still thinking in terms of using each other as resources for their own interests.
Murdering each other is against our nature but we’ve been doing it prolifically since the advent of agriculture so much so that war is seen as a “natural” part of life. The solution of killing all the bad guys so only good guys are left has probably been on the mind of most of those soldiers and military leader for the last 10,000 years. It turns out this approach doesn’t end authoritarianism or violence.
If somehow we killed 37% of the human population in no way would that bring us closer to a fair and equitable world. It would be exactly in line with dominator culture hegemony which has existed for the most recent few thousand years. What you described would not be revolutionary, but typical for the present buccaneer philosophy which is popular among the powerful and their thralls.
“Murdering each other is against our nature”
Nope. Genocide has always been with us. Where do you think all the other types of humans went?
A stable anarchy can’t exist
as long as people are still thinking in terms of using each other as resources for their own interests.FTFY. No point in pining for a social order fundamentally incompatible with human nature.
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What would the mechanism be to exterminate 37% of the human race with this degree of precision? Who would be in charge of it and why do we trust them not to continue using such a tool? If it’s not a military operation, what would it be?
A major, fundamental issue with your suggestion is that it assumes there are multiple species of humans which exist who are fundamentally different on a genetic level. If I was a god who could snap my fingers and instantly obliterate all conservatives, it would not be the end of conservatism. You yourself are locked in violent thinking, are you absolutely certain that your own children couldn’t possibly be attracted to violence when you yourself believe that mass violence on an unprecedented scale is the best opportunity to create a just world? Are you certain that no child born of any survivors would carry any temptation to take advantage of others as those in the past have? Are you sure no one in the surviving billions of people, generationally removed from your mass killing, would have the ability to re-invent a dipshit philosophy like fascism? I don’t think its bad genes which causes the myriad evils which result from trauma and poverty. As long as there is an incentive for people to behave in anti-social ways, people will behave in anti-social ways.
You are correct that unreasonable people can’t be reasoned with. Dogs also can’t be reasoned with but are not a threat to society. This is because we manage them. Trump has demonstrated that you can be a fool-whisperer like Cesar Milan is a dog-whisperer. The problem is that he uses his ability to influence fools for evil instead of good. These unreasonable fear-motivated dupes can be dealt with in ways that take advantage of their cowardice to neutralize themselves as a threat or depend on pro-social groups rather than use their cowardice to fuel despotism. The human race of which you and I are part will contain a vast array of people acting and being acted upon. We as a species can be influenced, but eugenic movements to root out undesirables have never worked.
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We’re not talking about the use of violence generally, which is a nuanced and vastly complex topic. We are talking about literally wiping out 37% of humanity, which is much less nuanced or complex. Such ideas should have been left behind during the previous century.
Lol, lmao even. I’m about 90% procent sure you’re from the USA just from this comment alone, opinon disregarded.
What is the point of posting a comment to say you’re disregarding an opinion.
Do you always loudly announce everyone you do something no one gives a shit about?
Darling, it’s obvious why. I’m bored and you seemed like someone who’s entertaining when annoyed.
Anarchists just want to be left alone
Then what prevents those with resources to take control of you and own you like slaves? Who will protect you against that?
Well you and your neighbors and friends, and the greater community that has the same ideal. If you want to be left alone you have to fight in solidarity for it as long as there are those who act to disturb your peace. It’s a desire, a hope, not a adherence to passivism.
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Yeah not sure where you get your numbers from or the basis for that. I can’t imagine someone would be more of an asshole outside of capitalism. Maybe you have some shit neighbors or maybe not and you just need to talk to them.
I don’t know anarchism in depth but reading through the comments here, this is what strikes me as an obvious vulnerability of the ideology. That and the seeming lack of a mechanism against returnung to capitalist production.
The examples of societies in this thread are inefficient in terms of production. While that’s probably a good thing for quality of life, it tells me they likely wouldn’t be able to produce enough defence goods to stop a capitalist from taking over and throwing them into factories for 12 hours per day. Capitalism being great at producing weapons efficiently.
lack of a mechanism against returnung to capitalist production
Well, AnCaps are in a mechanism to return to capitalist production (and the consolidation of wealth towards corporatism, monopoly, and fascism).
So the anarchists to the left of that are doing better, even if it’s true that they have no mechanism against returning to capitalist production.
The philosophy, may be sufficient, without mechanism or overly structuralist strategies. And the more everybody’s empowered, the easier and more sure that may be.
Insurgency is an extremely effective strategy against capitalist imperialism. It’s had a near perfect record for 70yrs now. Not to comment on the majority of ideologies that have utilized it…
really hilarious that to speak about your so called revolution you need to hide in the corner of the internet. So are we closer to that revolution that 10 days ago ? 10 year ago ? you r so eager to pretend you will ressort to violence that people will end up believing you
Gonna be honest with you. Violence has been the driving force for change for our entire human history. Non-violent change and action is a privilege afforded to us by the rights given to us by those who have laid down their lives to give us the assurance we can fight protected by our laws. But when the people are no longer served by those laws and instead the teeth turn inward… Then the people have a right to stand up for themselves and fight for that protection once more.
Also, can we talk about the fact that non-violent action is literally a threat by a large mob? Why do you think it works? It is a what-if scenario. The state wonders what will happen if this giant mob of people gets pushed further. It’s a threat.
I say it pretty often but Dr. Martin Luther King got cameras, Malcolm X got results.
both saw each other as important to furthering their own goals
So are we closer to that revolution that 10 days ago ? 10 year ago ?
Some would say we’ve made progress by leaps and bounds.
nice dictator you got here that certainly isnt a bad person and isnt the head of a country that s litteraly worse in any metric compare to yours except maybe capitalism
Why work together towards revolution, when we can rehash century-old beefs from different material conditions? Just get out there and organize, comrades.
bullshitting online is easier though
Australian here: can confirm that all kangaroos are tankies.
The communism-anarchism conflict often resembles the divide between urban and rural society.
It isn’t insurmountable.
Yup. Sure isn’t.
Easier yet, as we can (and shall) build things differently, to what the economic imbalances of industrial capitalism drew forth. And as emancipatory technologies are availed (to each and all).
I always enjoy the comments anytime this meme gets posted.
Tankies telling on themselves is never not amusing
Unless it’s the Spanish Civil War, where the Comintern spent more effort killing anarchists/social democrats than fighting the fascists.
SEE!?
Everybody? See?
The authoritarian’s know what side they’re on.
Time to stop falling for pitchforks vs torches. Time to stop allying ourselves with our authoritarian counterparts.
Or the Ukrainian theatre of the Russian civil war, during which the Bolsheviks tried to kill Makhno no less than four times, in spite of his movement fighting the whites alongside them.
Oh yeah? I didnt know about that. How many anarchists got killed by the Comintern during the Spanish Civil War? With a source, please?
Wait, is this the right place for the Spanish inquisition meme?
Isn’t that what happened in China during WWII as well?
I mean, it would be quicker to list the times in history when it didn’t happen.
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“Communist” is blurry (many anarchists might also call themselves communists), but the school of thought most associated with “communism” in common parlance is Leninism, and there are in fact deep differences between that and all schools of anarchism.
Leninism (including branches like ML, Trotskyism or Maoism) advocates for a strong, centralised “vanguard party” to carry out the revolution that doesn’t have to be itself democratic. Meanwhile anarchists reject all hierarchies and therefore organise as loose federations of small groups that often seek to empower the individual. (Both are liable to turn into sects lol)
So there is a very practical difference in how they feel and are run day-to-day. That only goes for people who actually go out and join some kind of organisation though, which is pretty rare for these ideologies.
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Who do you define as decent folk? (Grammar edit)
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So according to your reply: decent folk = worthless baby brained dumb fucks? 😬 You okay bro?
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Ah yes an opinion from ‘buttnugget’ which is definitely well researched and has evidence to support
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What you initially stated doesn’t scream ‘lets have a conversation!’ and if you’re interested in talking to anyone I wouldn’t call them stupid either. But hey I’ll bite: how are you doing today? Doing anything fun?
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Oops I never said your opinion was pointless. Try again!
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Aww, someone got their butt nugget hurt.
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What’s it like working at a troll farm?
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I wish. The world would be a much better place if the left could agree until we differ
I’m a leftist. If capitalism was destroyed I would love to debate and implement different economic and state systems as we work to improve the lives of all people.
But, having said that, we don’t live in a world without capitalism yet. So I will support any form of resistance of a people to Imperialist powers and capitalist interest. Unfortunately, we can’t put on a red hat and just support the guys with the red hats. It’s why I can support certain actions of groups and states ranging from Hamas to DPRK to even parts of the EU (but never never NATO).
This is why when there is “leftist infighting” I will almost always support the ML faction over any DemSocs or anarchist. Why? Because ML methods of resistance have been the only successful methods of resisting imperial occupation and influence that has been sustainable. If an anarchist faction destroys the state and is somehow able to defend itself from imperialist powers I’ll support that too. But we have Cuba today; we have the DPRK today. Are they the types of states I want to exist? No. But they do exist.
If another means of imperial resistance proves more effective than I will adjust my opinions and support. If your a leftist and not acknowledging the success of ML factions you’re not really a leftist. Especially if you spend all your time fighting with “tankies”. And if you’re a ML and not willing to adjust to changes in successful resistance (especially as the empire is shaking as it is now) than you’re not really a leftist but in a cult.
Okay, well I disagree on the effectiveness of ML methods, they industrialized quickly but easily fell to corruption and ended up falling to capitalism
But do we really need to debate that? I’d love to build something better than capitalism, but a glorious revolution isn’t on the table.
In the mean time, I totally agree.
I bet we’d agree with everything possible to do right now. I think imperialism is bad, but I’m worried about the future for my friends and family. I’m worried about my neighbors, about my country, about human rights violations against my countrymen
But I’m not going to live or die on stopping imperialism or on Palestine - we have to fix our county so we even have the ability to resist the forces of capital at home if we ever want to reign it in globally
I don’t think we should sacrifice these issues either, but I don’t think we have to… I just think we have to focus on that can be done now. We’re not going to unwind the World Bank and the IMF to get the global south off the debt treadmill tomorrow
We could overturn citizens united and start trust busting tomorrow if we fix healthcare today. If we fix housing, and food availability. If we bring back social programs
The empire is collapsing. I think that’s set in stone.
But Rome never truly fell, the people woke up the next day. The question is, do we fall into a dark age as we wait for the contradictions of capitalism to make the economy go poof, or do we wind it down gently
I think we can make material conditions for people better, which means that when the music stops progressives will be in power and have the trust of the people
And we can argue about how to build something better then. The next steps are the same
If you believe in ML or aspects of it, fine. I don’t care if you’re a full on tankie. You can be a militant vegan or radical environmentalist too.
But when progressives march, we all have to set down (not give ground on) our single issues to join them. Because they’re the movement marching against capital right now under a banner that we can all fit under without compromising any of our goals or ideals
Well put
Of course it would but see only my ideology gets that!
The problem is Trotskyists and Marxist-Leninists and anarcho-communists and anarcho-syndicalists and …
/s
And don’t even get me started on the anarcho-engineers!
You leftists sure are a contentious people.
You just made an enemy, for life!
i’mma dip all your insoles in elmer’s glue!
The left has to rally around all sorts of nuances to reach agreement. The right basically just has one thing: fear.
And racism.
So anyway, I’m an actual
An actual - what? What’s that flag now again? There are so many colors to the anarchist flags, don’t we have all colors covered by now?!
Nope!
Fine, I will tell you.
Anarcho-transhumanism!
Genuinely curious what that means.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/william-gillis-anarchy-and-transhumanism-2020
fundamentally anarcho-transhumanism is a social libertarian position that “my body, my choice” is true about a great many things. anarcho-transhumanists celebrate scientific advancements that allow a person to alter or modify their body as they see fit.
Anarcho-transhumanism is an anti-capitalist ideology blending anarchism and transhumanism, advocating for liberation from social and biological constraints through technology, viewing freedom as expanding physical and mental capabilities beyond natural limits, opposing hierarchies like state/capitalism, and using tools like biohacking, AI, and free software to achieve radical individual autonomy and collective enhancement, often arising as a counter to primitivist anti-technology stances
Ripped this off from google
I dunno man. I’ve been in the itsec world and the more I learned, the more I wanted to just uncle Ted the fuck out. I got the newest dinner car I could, I have a dumb TV, absolutely nothing with an always on mic, I even physically cut out the Wi-Fi antenna on my new window ac. So I’m really hesitant on the transhuman thing. But you do you if it makes you happy.
