• remon@ani.social
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    8 hours ago

    I mean, it’s not really bestiality if it isn’t sexual. A gynocological exam also isn’t fingering.

    • 9blb@feddit.org
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      3 hours ago

      I’m not sure on the specific definition of “bestiality” and whether “sexual pleasure of the executing party” or whatever you want to call it is a necessity, but consent should certainly be a part of it.

      Animals are, similar to children, students etc, fundamentally incapable of giving consent. If your gynecologist sticks a finger up your vagina without your consent, then it’s rape.

      • remon@ani.social
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        Animals are, similar to children, students etc, fundamentally incapable of giving consent

        Well … I agree with most of your points. But animals are not humans, so consent works fundamentally different. Domestic animals are owned, so humans act as the legal guardian. Yes, there should be regulation regarding general animal welfare.

        But I don’t think artificial insemination of livestock falls into the category of bestiality. It’s a fun meme and shitpost, though.

        • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de
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          2 hours ago

          I don’t think artificial insemination of livestock falls into the category of bestiality.

          If the perpetrator of the act (or the beneficiaries from the act) derives pleasure from it, isn’t it bestiality?

          • remon@ani.social
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            1 hour ago

            I think I know where you’re going with this … mh. Depends of what kind of pleasure. If it’s sexual, that would be bestiality, I guess.

            • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de
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              1 hour ago

              If someone likes doing it because their arm feels good inside the cow’s anus, fisting a cow wouldn’t be bestiality?

              • remon@ani.social
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                55 minutes ago

                Sure, but I think there is only a very small number of people that are in this business for that reason. Most of them just want to get their job done.

                • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  35 minutes ago

                  Say Alice fists a dog and films it, let’s say she derived no pleasure from fisting the dog, just wanted to get her job done. But she then posts the video online for many others to derive pleasure from it. Did she commit bestiality?

    • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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      1 hour ago

      I’m a little disappointed that everybody is appealing to ethics and professionalism.

      Look according to biblical law its fine as long as they’re married.

      And natural law: so many plants use “pollinators”. Imo these are human pollinators for cows. They pull out the bull honey (pollinators) and insert it into cows (flowers). The only part thats weird is unlike bees, the humans aren’t taking a nibble of the honey.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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          5 hours ago

          If you believe that animals should have rights like humans do, then animals can be raped. If slavery was still legal, would you write “it’s pretty fucked up to equate slave husbandry with rape”? Just because we have historically done something, that doesn’t mean that what we’re doing is in any way moral.

          • arrow74@lemmy.zip
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            1 hour ago

            Wow, comparing actual human slavery to cattle production. That’s certainly a take

          • stickly@lemmy.world
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            4 hours ago

            Animals can have rights and be protected from unnecessary cruelty without anthropomophizing them and granting full human rights. You’re equating full, sapient humans with a species specifically bred for a base purpose without higher levels of thought and expression.

            I don’t even think that statement is anthropocentric hubris. If ultra-advanced aliens showed up tomorrow and started domesticating humans for food or some other purpose, I would have the default expectation of them having the same or similar morals. Maybe we’d get access to decent healthcare and good libraries before we went to the slaughterhouse.

            Cows get more rights than trees or crops because they have an ability to express pain and convey emotion. They don’t have the same rights as humans because they could never give a passionate argument for suffrage to a jury.

            And to be clear: there are plenty of real, tangible reasons to end animal husbandry and make everyone vegan without even touching philosophy.

            • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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              3 hours ago

              Slaves can have rights and be protected from unnecessary cruelty without anthropomophizing them and granting full human rights. You’re equating full, sapient humans with a species specifically bred for a base purpose without higher levels of thought and expression.

              Your ancestors, probably

              • stickly@lemmy.world
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                2 hours ago

                This is a ludicrous argument. If you truly believe that all animals have the same rights then the only internally consistent conclusion is the virtual extermination of the human species.

                Life is a zero sum game. Something lives by consuming something else or displacing it for access to limited resources. Optimizing for the minimum harm to earth’s ecosystem is always going to be the end of agriculture, housing, hunting, industry and basically everything other human institution. We’re the most insidious invasive species ever and the world would be healthier without us mucking around.

                So unless you’re stumping for that, don’t pretend to have the moral high ground. If you are, stop wasting your time shaming people and skip right to culling them.

                • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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                  1 hour ago

                  I advocate for humanity to live in harmony and balance with our environment, that is why I am anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist as well as vegan. Our history is plagued with exploitation, that can’t be denied, but I am trying to change it and you are arguing that it cannot be changed and that we shouldn’t even try.

                  Humanity’s relationship with animals and nature has historically been exploitative but it doesn’t need to be that way.

                  We have vastly increased our ability to produce food. There are ample resources available on the planet for all of us to share and live in abundance. Human greed and selfishness is rewarded by our society. That means our society needs to change.

                  I reject your argument that life is a zero-sum game. My happiness does not need to come at the expense of another’s unhappiness. We can all work together to create a better future for all living things on our planet.

                  • stickly@lemmy.world
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                    25 seconds ago

                    I reject your argument that life is a zero-sum game

                    Then you’re a fundamentally blind idealist or just lying to yourself. The absolute bare minimum, purely vegetarian footprint needed to support a human is about 0.2 acres (~800 m²). That’s 0.2 acres of precious arable land that could support dozens of species of plants, insects and animals purely dedicated to one human and their crops. A diverse and thriving array of life traded for one person and a handful of domesticated species.

                    From there you’re now looking at displacement and damage from housing, water usage, soil degradation, waste disposal, pest control and every other basic necessity. God forbid you get into modern niceties like health care, transportation, education, arts, sciences, etc…

                    Humans aren’t friendly little forest nymphs, we’re megafauna. Even the most benign and innocuous species of primates (such as lemurs and marmosets) peaked their populations in the high millions. Getting the human population down from 8.3 billion to a sustainable level is a 99%+ reduction. That’s a more complete eradication than any genocide in recorded history, let alone the sheer amount of death and scope of institutional collapse.

                    That’s just a flat fact of our reality. Either 99% of humans have no right to exist or humans are inherently a higher class of animal. Choose one.

                    We have vastly increased our ability to produce food. There are ample resources available on the planet for all of us to share and live in abundance.

                    Uh ooooooh… someone isn’t familiar with how dependent our agriculture is on pesticides, petrochemicals and heavy industry 😬

                    We (currently) have ample oil and topsoil. Not ample sustainable food. Don’t even get me started on out other niche limits, like our approach to peak mineral supply or pollinator collapse.

          • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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            6 hours ago

            That’s correct, yes.

            However, my dog is my property, and someone can only artificially inseminate my property with my permission.

            • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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              4 hours ago

              So you’re aware, that’s a really fucked up thing to think. Let alone say.

              But maybe we disagree only on terminology?

              What would you call the act of nonconsensually sticking your dick into your dog, and do you think it’s horrible?

              • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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                4 hours ago

                What would you call the act of nonconsensually sticking your dick into your dog, and do you think it’s horrible?

                Raping a dog is bad, yes.

                • Leon@pawb.social
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                  2 hours ago

                  Raping a dog is bad, yes.

                  So a dog is someone and that’s what makes it rape? Where do you draw the line for someone? Is it the act of rape itself that’s bad, or is it the perpetrator getting sexual satisfaction from it? What if they don’t do it for that purpose, but some other more abstract reason? Is it okay then?

                  • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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                    2 hours ago

                    You thought you had me. Your argument is invalid and includes logical fallacies, because you’ve swapped the original situation, which was artificial insemination of livestock, for having sex with a pet. These are not comparable.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

                    Whether a dog is “someone” or not is irrelevant when discussing a completely different situation.

                    Forcibly impregnating someone is rape. Artificially inseminating livestock is not rape. Having sex with a pet animal is rape. Having sex with a consenting adult is not rape. Different things actually are, in fact, different.

              • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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                5 hours ago

                Anti-vegans will go to any depths of depravity in order to deal with their cognitive dissonance. Once, on Reddit, I got a commenter to agree that he would be fine if someone had a dog in a cage they tortured for entertainment, rather than agree that it’s kinda fucked up that we slaughter animals because their flesh tastes nice.

                • FishFace@piefed.social
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                  3 hours ago

                  So let me get this straight, you were arguing with someone, tried to lead them to a contradiction, but they actually had a consistent view on it that you didn’t like, and your conclusion is that they have cognitive dissonance?

                  My friend, I do not think that means what you think it means.

                  • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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                    3 hours ago

                    Most people agree that raping dogs is bad. Maybe they genuinely believe that raping dogs is okay, or maybe they’re just saying that to deal with their cognitive dissonance. I would prefer that it’s cognitive dissonance, but if they’re a dog rape apologist, then they’re a piece of shit anyways.

                    I hope it’s cognitive dissonance and not authentic approval of dog rape.

                • Senal@programming.dev
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                  5 hours ago

                  Real question, what if there is no cognitive dissonance.

                  Like someone who knows exactly what’s going on and says “fuck it, it’s delicious” ?

                  • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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                    5 hours ago

                    I’d ask them to sit down and watch a documentary about the animal agriculture industry (such as Earthlings) to be sure they really do know the truth.

                • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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                  5 hours ago

                  “I lead someone who disagrees with me into saying something stupid once, therefore everyone who disagrees with me must have cognitive dissonance.”

                  Lol

            • Senal@programming.dev
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              5 hours ago

              Ah the tried and tested “it’s ok if it’s my property” which historically(and currently) is a universal guideline for what is and isn’t ok.

            • bluefootedbooby@sopuli.xyz
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              6 hours ago

              Like, what a fucking stupid answer that can apply to anything and nothing at the same time.

              Animals are animals, and humans are animals. Kangaroos are not cows, but both are also animals - different things ARE different, but at the same time, in some aspects, they are not.

              • stickly@lemmy.world
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                4 hours ago

                Why doesn’t my dog have a right to vote? Why can a snake eat eggs but I can’t? Why is it OK for ants to farm aphids but not for humans to farm cows?

                Different things are, in fact, different. There are lots of dead simple and airtight arguments for veganism without counterproductive emotional appeals. Talk about economics or ecology or health and not about sad puppy dog eyes.

                • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  3 hours ago

                  Hell yeah! Morals are just a suggestion, lions eat their young, but I can’t? That’s bullshit and we all know it. If you wanna argue against eating our young (just the disabled ones, of course), please keep that melodramatic stuff out of here.

                • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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                  5 hours ago

                  paying someone to kill an animal so that you can consume its corpse is how you treat animals nicely, is it?

                  • Senal@programming.dev
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                    OK, so if negative fucks were a thing, that would be how may fucks in general i give about the actual argument you are having.

                    That being said, to me it seems hypocritical to be throwing shade about intentional animal cruelty unless you are somehow posting these replies without using any electronics whatsoever.

                    Almost all electronics require materials sourced or processed off the back of rare earth minerals not even mentioning the supply chain and assembly.

                    As you said, people are animals too, slavery and workplace mutilation are animal abuse.

                    I’m not whattabouting your argument, both things are fucked up and one doesn’t cancel out the other and as i said, i’m not supporting either side.

                    but the stunning lack of awareness (or acknowledgement) of the hypocrisy of your argument is offensive.

        • _tasten_tiger@feddit.org
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          8 hours ago

          If the recipient asked for it and the donor is giving it out of free will with the explicit intention then yes it is a medical treatment.

          • ryannathans@aussie.zone
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            8 hours ago

            Ah yes so when I give my dog antibiotics for an infection against his will it’s definitely not medical treatment

          • remon@ani.social
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            8 hours ago

            With humans yes, but in the case of non-human animals these decisions are up to the owner.

            edit: clarification for the ultra-dense.

              • Arcadeep@lemmy.world
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                58 minutes ago

                The differentiation “human” is artificial and made up…

                Uh… So the differentiation between ‘cow’ and ‘chicken’ is also artificial and made up, as well as the differentiation between ‘rock’ and ‘jetplane.’

                What’s your point?

              • stickly@lemmy.world
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                The differentiation “human” is artificial and made up…

                You share 25% of your DNA with a tree, is it slavery to own four apple trees?

        • It is rape!

          Remember there have been at least one-doctor that did this to women, not in his offices to become pregnant (warning, SP?). A famous case was a doctor that raped/impregnanted (SP?) a lot of women looking to become mothers, with his own sperm. The obvious results/proof came after birth,

            • Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 hour ago

              Arguing with vegans is like arguing with antivaxxers, they are positions based on emotions and they have their own version of reality they use to reinforce their believes. They often claim they have studies to back up their claims but the most shallow dive shows them to be bullshit.

              It’s literally evident as they try to reframe this as rape. Their need to lean on rhetoric shows they have a strong basis for their believes.

    • FinjaminPoach@lemmy.world
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      8 hours ago

      It is sexual, it sounds like they jack them off to acquire genetic material to impregnate the female livestock with

      • DahGangalang@infosec.pub
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        7 hours ago

        Trying to be “facts forward” so make of this what you will. Source: I was in FFA in highschool in a beef intense-ish area.

        The method of collecting semen I’m most familiar with is when they take a female cow in heat and tie her up, then bring a male bull they want to collect semen from into the same pen. The male will smell the female is in heat, gets erect, and will attempt to mount her.

        As the male is trying to mount the female, people in the pen with the cattle will have a large rubbery “sleeve” on a pole (imagine a cow sized condom on a stick) that they will maneuver around the bull’s penis as it mounts the cow. He does his thing in the condom thinking he’s inside the female (usually less than 30 seconds) dismounts and then the ranchers have their semen for artificial insemination.

        I’ve been out of that area for over a decade now so a new method may have emerged since then, but in my Animal Sciences class, that’s how we were taught semen is harvested for most livestock.

        Edit: I distinctly recall the “artificial vagina” being on a stick (and laughing about it in class), but best video I can find on the quick: https://youtu.be/-4ma3WeOxbo

        • furry toaster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          25 minutes ago

          there is a new method of eletrical rectal stimulation that stimulates the prostate through the anus, afaik only used on bovines

        • bearboiblake@pawb.social
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          5 hours ago

          You left out the rest, where the calf is seperated from its mother, tortured and killed for veal, while the mother mourns the loss of her child that the milk she produces is actually for, so the milk can be stolen from her for profit.

          • DahGangalang@infosec.pub
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            7 hours ago

            Eh, I feel like the female cow is still getting a raw deal. Less raw than the classic “breed this bull with this cow” arrangement, but still somewhat not good.

          • testfactor@lemmy.world
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            6 hours ago

            If non-human animals cannot consent, isn’t all sex between any two non-human animals rape?

            If that’s the case, isn’t this preferable to just letting the animals just rape each other indiscriminately?

            • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de
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              2 hours ago

              isn’t all sex between any two non-human animals rape?

              Non-human animals aren’t moral agents and can’t be subjected to the same moral outcomes that humans have. The same way we can’t say a hurricane has done something immoral.

              Non-human animals are moral patients. When moral agents act immorally upon moral patients, the agents are responsible.

            • FinjaminPoach@lemmy.world
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              3 hours ago

              isn’t this preferable to just letting the animals just rape each other indiscriminately?

              That’s not why people do it though. It is wrong to make up new justifications for actions after the fact. It exists as an industrial process to get animals pregnant more often than they’d naturally choose to.

              isn’t all sex between any two non-human animals rape?

              And no, not all sex between 2 animals is rape. Animals can consent to sex with other members of their species, animals can’t consent to sex with other species because of communication differences (the big one being any animal with a human).

              If that’s the case, isn’t this preferable to just letting the animals just rape each other indiscriminately?

              The same way that hunting is more moral than farming, letting animals go at it in a natural way is way better than 1. tricking bulls into ejaculating into tubes and 2. forcibly inseminating cows with that genetic material.

              You need to quantify the rate at which animal rape is occuring to justify using this method on the basis of “preventing rape.”

              Also if you sought to prevent any animal rape, you’d have to seperate them all by sex. As far as I know this doesn’t generally happen except for their specific breeding season, and it would be cruel to seperate male and female livestock for their entire existence, just as it’s cruel to deny them their natural sexual intercourse. Humans aren’t supposed to play God with every facet of an animal’s life.

            • Anisette [any/all]@quokk.au
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              7 hours ago

              If I were to artificially inseminate a woman with sperm from a spermbank without her consent, would that be sexual assault?

                • Anisette [any/all]@quokk.au
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                  7 hours ago

                  right mate, I am sure you can draw any equivalences with bestiality and such yourself, so I won’t explicate on them. I just want to say, you don’t have to defend the man-made horrors within our comprehension of animal product industries if you don’t want to be a vegan. I am not a vegan, because I can’t afford to. You can just say “that shit’s fucked up”.

                  • remon@ani.social
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                    7 hours ago

                    There is a lot of horrible things in animal agriculture, this one isn’t really one of them. I’ve seen the process with my own eyes … the cows don’t care, they barley notice. I feel more for the people who have to do that professionally.

                  • remon@ani.social
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                    7 hours ago

                    Others Beings have rights

                    Only if we say so. We invented the entire “rights” thing in the first place and we’re kind of in charge of handing them out.

                    If you believe in god(s)

                    Nope, just plain old non-existence after death for me.

        • FinjaminPoach@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          Veterinary in the sense that “it’s a duty a veterinarian might perform do,” but in this context it’s done to create more animals for us to harvest food from. Because letting them do it at their own rate wasn’t fast enough for this industrialised society’s appetite.

          It’s disingenous to call it a veterinary procedure; we’re under no illusions about why this is being done. The cow didn’t ask for a bloody sperm donor, lol.