But also, don’t think you have to do all the work yourself. I think we very often underestimate the importance of being the one that simply plants the seed. Of course the difficulty is that usually we can’t tell if said seed has actually been planted, so it feels like a waste of energy.
The best way I’ve found is to just ask questions like you don’t understand the topic but are interested in learning more. Their logic is going to have holes, and you want to guide them into stumbling into one.
The hard part is asking probing questions without sounding like you’re trying to pull a “gotcha”.
They come up to me – great people, smart people – and they come up and they tell me: "Mr. Technician, sir, we’re so impressed with your terminology. Everybody’s talking about it. China’s talking – " they don’t have very good doctors over there, folks, so they come to me for advice.
I’ve tried planting the seed a few times with people who voluntarily wiretap their own house with an Alexa. Each time they’ve picked it up and ran further with it, like “Oh I know! If I mention seat belt covers, suddenly amazon is recommending a bunch of seat belt covers in my home page!” No thoughts at all of doing anything with this conclusion.
I’ve also witnessed planting the seed working in plenty of other scenarios, just thought this particular fumble was common and particularly funny.
The seed they need isn’t just that they’re being spied on, but that it’s personally bad for them when compared to not having the device. Alternatives that may be more expensive, but are safer and within their capacity are also valuable.
This is especially a thing with ring cameras. One thing I do is be very upfront about how despite being a victim of the sort of rare crime that inspires people get them out of fear, I didn’t respond by buying one or a gun, I then explain why and what alternative I’m going with instead. The cops showed me clearly why they can’t be trusted to use camera footage responsibly on behalf of victims when they were loudly demanding answers about my weed bowl but couldn’t be bothered to look at the footprints under the window with a cut screen, instead insisting we’d left the door the invader left through unlocked.
So I have this really creepy picture someone painted of Jesus. It’s eyes follow you wherever you go I wish I knew how to do that anyways my neighbors are very funny. They put that picture of Jesus on their wiretap.
Yeah, it’s really hard to get lay people to understand infosec issues. I had to create a separate VLAN for my wife because she couldn’t tolerate being behind a VPN or pihole because she wants to click on sponsored ads on Google.
And don’t get me started on how she feels about the fact that I password protect all. She knows my password, but still thinks I’m hiding something.
But I work in InfoSec, so of course I’m hiding everything. Just not from her.
Yeah, too many people think anyone who cares about data security needs to get their hard drives checked.
Fundamentally, just completely antithetical to the principles of constitutional democracy, basic freedoms and human rights.
“Everyone else lets me walk over their rights, so if you maintain your own then you must have something to hide, and I will use that as justification to transgress them!” It’s so fucked up…
I know you’re just talking about your wife, but the same thing applies to corporations, adware, data brokers, and governments.
Unfortunately, it would go right over their heads and they would just call you a creep, reinforcing their belief that you should be under constant surveillance…
And they’d probably go and put a ring camera in their bedroom… you know, for… privacy…
Yes. I use this on people, and some of them react positively, but even those dont care all that much. They understand the reasoning but the answer is still “I dont care”.
I went to Lowe’s a couple of months ago and that night on Amazon I got recommendations for drill bits and cabinet door pulls. The weird thing was that I did buy some drill bits at Lowe’s but I just looked at cabinet pulls there. I’m guessing my phone was linked to in-store footage and AI noted where in the store I stopped to look at stuff. As a kid I used to look forward to living in the future, now I kinda regret it.
You know, I appreciate that perspective because I do believe it’s important overall if we’re ever going to recover as a society, but I’m also concerned that perhaps as a society we’re just too far gone. Some people will never get it, and you have to be prepared for that, but I do think it’s a good thing to leave that door open for people who eventually come around. If that door isn’t open, they’ll just go back to their same old echo chambers.
At the same time, be aware that there’s a certain combination of narcissism and dunning-kruger which will lead some people to believe you’re validating them by listening and asking questions, and they may double down or even go on to be even more confidently outlandish, because someone who seemed smart decided to listen to them and ask them questions, so clearly they must be even more smarter!
Like, you know that technique they teach you in basic interpersonal communication and conflict resolution classes? The one where you’re supposed to listen to a person and repeat back what they said before laying out why you disagree with it?
Yeah, that doesn’t work when as soon as you finish summarizing their point to them they go “Yeah, exactly, I’m glad you agree,” and then change the topic into something even more batshit crazy…
Maybe an important point in all this is you don’t have to hide your intentions or even agree. While the idea is to get them to think safely without putting up a defensive perimeter, you can still be genuine about your point of view. How that happens might be circumstantial, but, for example, you can probably always safely say something like, “I’m not saying I agree, but I was curious about your point of view.” Of course, every discussion (and how we navigate it) is going to be different.
But also, don’t think you have to do all the work yourself. I think we very often underestimate the importance of being the one that simply plants the seed. Of course the difficulty is that usually we can’t tell if said seed has actually been planted, so it feels like a waste of energy.
Sshush! You ate giving the tankies ideas!
Knowing how to plant the seed is crucial too.
The best way I’ve found is to just ask questions like you don’t understand the topic but are interested in learning more. Their logic is going to have holes, and you want to guide them into stumbling into one.
The hard part is asking probing questions without sounding like you’re trying to pull a “gotcha”.
Okay Socrates.
I was going to say, actually listen, avoid being the annoying person Just Asking Questions
I heard you just put your thingie in her woo-hoo bag and then you plip plap until you both yeehaw.
Thank you for using proper medical terms!
Of course. I am, after all, Jesus; I know the best medical terms – tremendous terms.
According to everybody: “We’ve never known anyone with better medical terms, just amazing stuff”
They come up to me – great people, smart people – and they come up and they tell me: "Mr. Technician, sir, we’re so impressed with your terminology. Everybody’s talking about it. China’s talking – " they don’t have very good doctors over there, folks, so they come to me for advice.
Plap plip but otherwise perfect.
Oh god, is plip plap the gay one?? I promised my mom in high school that I wasn’t gay; if she finds out, she’ll never let me live it down.
I’ve never got this far with a boy
So well intentioned sealioning? Still gives me the icky.
I’ve tried planting the seed a few times with people who voluntarily wiretap their own house with an Alexa. Each time they’ve picked it up and ran further with it, like “Oh I know! If I mention seat belt covers, suddenly amazon is recommending a bunch of seat belt covers in my home page!” No thoughts at all of doing anything with this conclusion.
I’ve also witnessed planting the seed working in plenty of other scenarios, just thought this particular fumble was common and particularly funny.
The seed they need isn’t just that they’re being spied on, but that it’s personally bad for them when compared to not having the device. Alternatives that may be more expensive, but are safer and within their capacity are also valuable.
This is especially a thing with ring cameras. One thing I do is be very upfront about how despite being a victim of the sort of rare crime that inspires people get them out of fear, I didn’t respond by buying one or a gun, I then explain why and what alternative I’m going with instead. The cops showed me clearly why they can’t be trusted to use camera footage responsibly on behalf of victims when they were loudly demanding answers about my weed bowl but couldn’t be bothered to look at the footprints under the window with a cut screen, instead insisting we’d left the door the invader left through unlocked.
So I have this really creepy picture someone painted of Jesus. It’s eyes follow you wherever you go I wish I knew how to do that anyways my neighbors are very funny. They put that picture of Jesus on their wiretap.
Yeah, it’s really hard to get lay people to understand infosec issues. I had to create a separate VLAN for my wife because she couldn’t tolerate being behind a VPN or pihole because she wants to click on sponsored ads on Google.
And don’t get me started on how she feels about the fact that I password protect all. She knows my password, but still thinks I’m hiding something.
But I work in InfoSec, so of course I’m hiding everything. Just not from her.
Yeah, too many people think anyone who cares about data security needs to get their hard drives checked.
Fundamentally, just completely antithetical to the principles of constitutional democracy, basic freedoms and human rights.
“Everyone else lets me walk over their rights, so if you maintain your own then you must have something to hide, and I will use that as justification to transgress them!” It’s so fucked up…
I know you’re just talking about your wife, but the same thing applies to corporations, adware, data brokers, and governments.
I like to ask the “I have nothing to hide” people if I can go paw through their underwear drawer.
I mean, most everyone wears it, so it’s not like it’s something to hide, right?
Unfortunately, it would go right over their heads and they would just call you a creep, reinforcing their belief that you should be under constant surveillance…
And they’d probably go and put a ring camera in their bedroom… you know, for… privacy…
Yes. I use this on people, and some of them react positively, but even those dont care all that much. They understand the reasoning but the answer is still “I dont care”.
People are desensitized. It’s been normalized so long. Slow boil type thing.
People actually click those? That’s horrifying.
Yeah, I agree
Infosec seems like a depressing job to be in atm.
I went to Lowe’s a couple of months ago and that night on Amazon I got recommendations for drill bits and cabinet door pulls. The weird thing was that I did buy some drill bits at Lowe’s but I just looked at cabinet pulls there. I’m guessing my phone was linked to in-store footage and AI noted where in the store I stopped to look at stuff. As a kid I used to look forward to living in the future, now I kinda regret it.
There might be some kind of RFID in the shelves that senses your phone’s proximity and how long it lingers…
Might be Bluetooth beacon tracking: https://www.mokosmart.com/bluetooth-proximity-marketing-ble-beacons/
Seems like these should typically be used by store apps, but who knows when other apps have like 37,876 trusted partners they share data with.
Basically the Socratic method
Yeah, too many people rag on Socrates without really understanding him.
Me: This is a seed.
Them: “No, fuck you.”
Me: This continues to be a seed.
You know, I appreciate that perspective because I do believe it’s important overall if we’re ever going to recover as a society, but I’m also concerned that perhaps as a society we’re just too far gone. Some people will never get it, and you have to be prepared for that, but I do think it’s a good thing to leave that door open for people who eventually come around. If that door isn’t open, they’ll just go back to their same old echo chambers.
At the same time, be aware that there’s a certain combination of narcissism and dunning-kruger which will lead some people to believe you’re validating them by listening and asking questions, and they may double down or even go on to be even more confidently outlandish, because someone who seemed smart decided to listen to them and ask them questions, so clearly they must be even more smarter!
Like, you know that technique they teach you in basic interpersonal communication and conflict resolution classes? The one where you’re supposed to listen to a person and repeat back what they said before laying out why you disagree with it?
Yeah, that doesn’t work when as soon as you finish summarizing their point to them they go “Yeah, exactly, I’m glad you agree,” and then change the topic into something even more batshit crazy…
Maybe an important point in all this is you don’t have to hide your intentions or even agree. While the idea is to get them to think safely without putting up a defensive perimeter, you can still be genuine about your point of view. How that happens might be circumstantial, but, for example, you can probably always safely say something like, “I’m not saying I agree, but I was curious about your point of view.” Of course, every discussion (and how we navigate it) is going to be different.
deleted by creator
Gotta coddle their ego because man, are the stupid of this world confident!
Oh, is that how you look at it? That’s… interesting.
walks away