[green, speaking, looking smug]
Okay, hear me out, here’s the plan…
We go full apathy, basically we let capitalism fully spiral out into fascism. Once it’s done, people will rise up and the system will collapse under its own weight. From its ashes, with our help, a better society will rise. This is how we win.
[we now see that green is tied up in front of a bleak wall, along with a group of other people, being aimed at by a firing squad of characters in fascist uniforms]
[green, smiling] OK?
[blue, pissed] Dude…
There’s also climate accelerationism, which is least logically sound. If humans wipe themselves out, then the problem will be solved.
I’m fine with the logic of a species going extinct because they destroyed their own ecosystem, but intentionally accelerating that process is what I can only describe as evil. It’s doing massive harm for no benefit. It won’t save the planet’s current inhabitants from further damage; the real motivation is genocide against humans.
Potentially at the expense of all non-microbial life.
I don’t think that’s on the cards. Non-microbial life has survived 70% of the planet’s forests going up in flames as a consequence of a massive asteroid impact, and the ensuing years or possibly decade+ of planet-wide ash and dust clouds blocking out the sun. And that was just the latest mass extinction event.
You’re giving humanity far too much credit by assuming we’d be capable of anything comparable right now.
If we keep burning oil fields and melting the Arctic which releases massive methane emissions, then we could be pretty fucked. Maybe not all non-microbial life, but we could be headed toward lizard world again.
True, but that is part of the natural order. At the end of the day, humans are just another parasitic and unchecked species that is probably going to learn about their own environmental limits the hard way.
The problem is capitalism. Don’t make it about humans as a species when there are countless counter examples we can learn from
The Soviets were shit on environmentalism for a long time. We didn’t see a serious environmental movement in China until the early 2000s. We’ve never really seen one in the USSR, prior to its collapse.
The alternative to Capitalism is not necessarily whatever the fuck the Soviets’ idea of Communism was.
“Capitalism caused all these ecological problems”
“Okay what about the same problems occurring outside of a capitalist framework”
“Those don’t count”
Shrug
You’ve got to move beyond the ideological and address the material. Ecological harm isn’t predicated on privatized profit.
“I’m sick, my covid test is positive. I’m staying at home.”
“Actually, noro virus has similar symptoms. The problem isn’t covid.”
Shrug
“COVID is the problem”
“I’ve got norovirus”
“That doesn’t matter”
True. That’s not what I had in mind when I talked about alternatives.
It’s not about humans as a species. Capitalism is definitely a driving factor, but this is far from the first time a species has developed maladaptive tendencies that led to ecological destabilization. I am not saying it’s good, but it is not a uniquely human phenomenon by any means.
True, just look at what they are finding out about ancient South American society in the Amazon. Apparently, at one point humans nearly wiped out most of the Amazon rainforest to have gigantic, almost New York sized metropolitan cities.
The problem is about greed and corruption. Communism doesn’t fix that.
And a culture that reinforces it.
If you are talking about Bolshevism, I agree.
I mean if you hate yourself that much there’s other options than trying to take us out with you
I’m not trying to do anything, but if humans drive themselves to extinction, it is what it is. The planet will go on, new intelligent life will develop eventually, hopefully, if not here than some other planet. But maybe we will come close to the brink of extinction and then finally wake up, perhaps that is what it will take.
Even parasites are important to the environment. Also, if you wanna be dragged down to hell, don’t pull us with you.
Not every species is perfectly adapted to the environment forever. Multiple mass extinctions due to ecological destabilization have proven that.
Humans are the exception precisely because they can see the axe falling and move out of the way.
Outside of the fossil fuel dominated US/Saudi sphere, we’ve seen an enormous collaborated effort to curb greenhouse gases. Not everyone is ignoring the risks and consequences.
What we have the capitalist West is a conscious choice between short term profit and long term survival.
Yes, some have taken steps to move away from fossil fuels, but not all, and most scientists agree it is too late without negative emissions. I agree that it is largely driven by capitalism, and that in and of itself is a root cause of many problems with our species and should be done away with, but if it takes the entire world falling apart to make the realities undeniably apparent, then so be it. I’m not saying I want it to happen, just that that may be the only thing that can make the conditions for real lasting change.
I mean, “too late” for what is always the question. Folks keep insisting The Apocalypse is next month. And then it doesn’t come, and we get a wave of “I guess nothing actually ever happens” during a new record heat wave.
The world is a big place. It’s not clear what “falling apart” is even supposed to look like.
I’m seeing people predicting a 4% drop in population because of a particularly harsh El Nino this year. I’ve been hearing about a looming economic crash that’s at least ten years overdue.
At the scope of a human life, all of this is still very gradual change. You’re going to be living in the middle of it and not realize how much has changed because you never knew subzero weather in St. Louis or glaciers in Montana were normal.
The talk is of some kind of sharp sudden drop, and not the further churn of a 30,000 year old global extinction event.
When did I say anything about it being rapid or sudden change? Climate change is slow, and the effects are felt over decades. I am fully aware of this, and just because the effects are akin to boiling a frog, it does not mean that the ultimate effects will not be devastating.
There’s pretty much no evidence we will wipe ourselves “out” through climate change.
Really really fuck ourselves over? Sure. But it’s not going to kill literally everyone.
We have to figure out how to live together with the planet one way or another, and one day.
That’s even more of a case for it then. If the truth about climate destabilization is undeniable and happening in front of our eyes, maybe we will finally do something about it. Humans seem to not really give a shit about things until it directly affects their daily lives.
Trump has done more to curb emissions with the closing of Hormuz than the last five presidents combined.
Yea, sure, by instigating the bombing of oil fields and refineries, instantly burning hundreds of millions of barrels of oil into the atmosphere. Definitely reducing emissions…
Also, petrochemicals are a requirement for any sort of transition to alternatives. Humanity has been binging for nearly two centuries on free energy through hard oil dependence.
If we don’t tirate off of that the shock will (functionally) kill us. The thought that halting that consumption will solve everything is like an extreme alcoholic thinking quitting cold turkey will work.
Only if you consider that the world revolves around humans.
That’s iike living in a house that is falling apart and saying if I just let it fall apart completely then I won’t need to fix the house
That’s a pretty over simplistic analogy. We didn’t build the ecosystem, and we are not going to be rebuilding anything if it collapses. Whatever is left will survive and adapt, and maybe some species smarter than us will evolve in a few hundred million years that will actually learn how to properly live in their environment without destroying it. Or if some humans do survive, they will be able to rebuild society based on an understanding of ecological limits.
And then we’ll just rebuild!
…on top of the pile of debris that was a home…and lacking assets.