Lol Epic Games should have stopped being relevant after the 90s.
For those unfamiliar, CachyOS doesn’t ship a single kernel…
Well, they ship a default kernel, yes, but one is immediately presented with a dedicated GUI for swapping between them.
There are all sorts of variants. There are kernels with different schedulers, a server/workstation kernel, a “deckified” kernel, a LLVM built kernel, and all sorts of niches optimized for specific applications. Making switching frictionless is central to CachyOS, hence they build variants for different CPUs, and drivers paired to each one, so you don’t even need dkms to switch between them.
They are adding an EAC kernel + guide as an option.
It’s yet another niche option.
That is a critical distinction. I don’t judge people for all the weird niche stuff they want to do on their PC; playing Fortnite isn’t even in the top half of that weirdness. Providing that as an option is fine.
…If they were to ship it by default?
Yeah. Then I would be concerned.
Yeah I can just choose what kernel I want to use in Limine.
Exactly. I personally have 4 different kernel presets in systems-boot, all for different thunks I use the PC for.
But didn’t Exact Audio Copy stop at v1.8?
Linux not being able to run Fortnite was a feature, not an issue.
TBH, Epic Games EACv2 looks decently well designed, and robust:
Requirements:
- Signed Kernel & Kernel Modules
- TPM 2.0
- Secure Boot
- Measured Boot
- Input-Output Memory Management Unit (IOMMU)
- Kernel Lockdown Integrity Mode
- Kexec Disabled
- Linux Security Module BPF
- systemd service (with hopefully introspectable code) which all it does is checks the above and gives a verified bool (also locks memory regions for Epic games)
Generally it is a good system of locking down any potential paths for code that can work on other processes’ memory.
Signed boot kernel is big problem for most distros (though most people don’t modify their ramdisk, or cmdline, so… probably fine?). Kernel modules would be iffy too, I guess, but presumable even for Arch it would mean .ko from only the official repos. The others are just annoyances.
Would not be a huge amount of pain to set this up for distros. Definitely political momentum is not there and I think will never be. Linux is just a different beast and won’t bend to their corporational “Lock it down!” mentality, better find other ways to combat cheating.
I have yet to see a machine that doesn’t have a tainted kernel (meaning the kernel wasn’t signed, a module wasn’t signed, or both) in the wild. Not even with Ubuntu.
At the same time, requiring TPM 2.0 is the same anti consumer thing Win11 did.
Secure boot is a pain to set up on Linux because it was never meant to be for Linux. It’s a Microsoft invention that Microsoft holds the keys for.
Kexec is useful on a lot of machines for faster reboot times, and disabling it can make them significantly longer.
LSM BPF is scary and sketchy, especially if you’re giving a proprietary blackbox access to it. You should not have random software accessing that.
Actually, I setup secure boot, it isnt that much of a pain. If the docs were more clear, it’s like a nice 4-7 commands, with some reboots (clarity missing in arch wiki)
If you’re stupid enough to install an Epic store, you don’t deserve a Linux distro holding your hand.
Congrats CachyOS. Now you get to wait for Epic to approve any new release or risk losing all your users who will come to depend on EAC.
Hell yeah let’s BACKDOOR ALL USERS to accommodate a single PRIVATE CORPORATION HELL YEAH
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Hmmm… do I want to run unverified code in my kernel from the “Programming is too hard!” guys?
No.
We need to keep boycotting Epic Games.
Epic Pinball and Jazz Jackrabbit were pretty good tho…
I understand why this might appeal to some gamers, I really do. I promise I sympathize, but if you’re willing to run EAC on your Linux install it’s worth asking why you’re running Linux and what you think you’re getting out of it?
At this point we’re starting to see some better gaming performance due to good compatibility layers and Microsoft just repeatedly shooting themselves in the dick, but for me at least a large part of it was escaping that ecosystem that gives them control over your system. Giving them that kernel level access so you can keep playing Fortnite is a devil’s bargain. Seriously, please find a new game and I’m trying to convey that in the least judgmental way possible.
I don’t play EAC games, so I don’t really have a stake in this.
There are plenty of reasons to run Linux apart from “I want complete and utter freedom” or something like that.
I would gently remind you that we have been giving kernel-level access to e.g. Nvidia for decades too.
It’s a trade-off, and there are still plenty of actual day-to-day practical benefits of running Linux beyond philosophy.
Valid points, I type from a laptop running proprietary drivers. But I do argue there’s a difference worth considering what Nvidia might be doing with those closed drivers (something that does increasingly worry me given the current state of things) vs. the much more clear intent of what Secure Boot and TPM implementations are outright stating they intend. These are documented DRM applications with direct control over your system, mostly right of denial, over what software you can or can’t run depending on the state it’s in and what they think about it.
It’s not a zero sum game, every choice matters and comes with its own weight. I understand making these philosophical arguments is difficult and tedious, but if you don’t at least make them, there are a lot of people who aren’t ever going to hear them. EAC is the wide open door to demanding you run services, telemetry, and online accounts on your Linux system enshittifying that, too.
Agreed, I’d rather a family member running Fortnite on Linux than on windows.
I’d rather the hell of device attestation and TPM stay on Windows and away from Linux. I like having my PC be my computer rather than not be allowed to use hardware/software at the behest of some corporation who can arbitrarily decide I no longer get access.
Hey, that’s totally fine. Nobody forces you to do anything. Run whatever you want on your PC. But don’t try to control what kind of software someone else is allowed to run on their system.
You don’t want corpos to control what you can do, that’s ok.
But you don’t get to control what others can do either.
I see where you’re coming from, but I also see where their concerns are still valid: these changes could become the defacto default for pretty much everything if allowed to flourish without opposition. For a great example of that, see systemd: yes, you can run a system without it, but you’ll be cut off from mainstream distros and even have trouble with getting a lot of regular software to work, such as Gnome, unless someone has patched those requirements out.
So, I’m in favor of pushing back on this, even if it’s not going into a game I play. It might be shoved into games I want to play later, possibly even most games I’ll want to play, even if they don’t have multiplayer, because corpos gonna corpo.
If I had faith it would remain optional, I might feel differently, but I can see this becoming part of the new DRM model that everyone has to bow to or be cut off from pretty much all mainstream (and a lot of non-mainstream) games. Maybe even pretty much all mainstream (and a lot of non-mainstream) distros.
EAC on your Linux install it’s worth asking why you’re running Linux
Why is that even a question? Running EAC doesn’t undermine why you run Linux (which can have many different reasons). It’s not like EAC takes over your PC like on Windows. The Linux implementation is completely different and uses Linux features, controlled by Linux and not the EAC anticheat. EAC cannot do whatever they want and they don’t get root rights (unlike Windows version of the anticheat).
Which I’m very grateful for since Helldivers just switched to it
I thought Helldivers is playable on Linux already?
You misunderstand me: I’m grateful that the current Linux EAC doesn’t do kernel/root level bullshit like the Windows version because Helldivers players just got it foisted on us
Ah I see. Mee too. I was playing a lot Marvel Rivals, and their anticheat doesn’t have this rootkit behavior, nor is it even possible without giving it root access.
I wanted to play hunger. Even got into the beta. Installed it, then I found I couldn’t play it because it’s using EAC2. Fuck if I’m going to bother jumping through hoops to play it. Or any other game. If Hunt Showdown (another EAC title) forces EAC2 then I’ll quit playing that as well. I’m entirely fucking done with invasive anticheat.
Steam is full of games that don’t require kernel-level anti-cheat. There’s more than enough to play to not do these companies’ bidding.
I know. That’s what I’m doing.
EACv2 isn’t actually invasive in the sense how it works on Windows. It uses features we already have in Linux, without itself getting root rights or being invasive. I assume at the moment most distributions have not yet worked on this. I assume (or better hope) in the future most gaming ready distributions will have this builtin without you worrying, or enable it quickly. I think this implementation as it sounds is the best possible way, much better than how invasive anticheat works on Windows. I’m actually stoked about the way Epic handles this! It should have been Valve doing it! (And that comes from someone hating on Epic and loving Valve, BTW.)
No.
It should have been Valve doing it! (And that comes from someone hating on Epic and loving Valve, BTW.)
I’ve written at length elsewhere in the topic about how it’s not just the technical implementation, but what this attestation process signifies about control of these companies over your system.
I understand this is one of the weaker arguments I can make in isolation, but it bears asking the question: why is it Epic that’s doing it and not Valve?
They don’t have control over my system. Its still controlled by the Linux Kernel and the features of it, no direct control from the companies. They can’t do whatever they want.
Why in god’s name should it be Valve’s job to implement this? None of Valve’s games use EAC…
Why in god’s name should it be Valve’s job
Because Valve is interested in making anticheat work in Linux. By all companies, I would have expected this from Valve. I’m not talking about working on EAC, but all the stuff how it is implemented, the work on using the Linux Kernel and setting up Secure Boot, talking with all the distributions and vendors to make it happen. And even if it was to make EAC work first, I would have expected this from Valve, because they are the most interested into all anticheats to work on Linux.
You might be completely devoid of any imagination if you can’t come up with at least a reason.
You probably didn’t read how it works either. Not really an issue 🤷
I’ve made this comment before, but to reiterate, I think that consoles are generally a better solution for competitive multiplayer games.
Consoles were designed from the ground up to be locked down. PCs were designed to be open and modifiable. Trying to figure out ways to jury-rig a PC to act locked-down is always gonna be an uphill battle.
Also, since this is for competitive multiplayer games, consoles also provide a level playing field on hardware. No pay-to-win “buy this hardware to get an edge” stuff. There’s a whole industry of PC “gamer” hardware sold using basically “pay to win” marketing.
PCs are nice because they’re open. That lets you make one faster or prettier or use any input device or rig up macro software or mod games, fiddle with memory or whatever. And that’s a good thing for games that aren’t competitive multiplayer games. You can play the game however you want, and it’s not like it negatively affects anyone else. But that same characteristic that’s an advantage for non-competitive-multiplayer gaming is a drawback for competitive multiplayer gaming.
For competitive multiplayer gaming, you want a platform that provides equal footing for all players as much as possible and is hard to modify, and that’s what consoles do well.
You don’t need to force competitive games to console to do this, just have the tournament or league provide the hardware for tournaments. If a “pro” shows up and suddenly sucks when playing on the league machine then you figure out pretty quick they are getting help from something.
Also, consoles doesn’t stop cheating. This is the same mentality that thinks EAC or Vanguard stops cheating. Hardware cheat tools can work on console exactly as well as they do on a PC. There are already plenty of options for people that really want to cheat that the host computer doesn’t even know about, just sees a standard mouse and/or keyboard plugged in. This can do the exact same thing with a console and a controller.
Regular players suffer from cheating way more.
I am not against all anti-cheat, just kernal level anti-cheat.
Stopping cheating doesn’t require exclusive zero-ring access to a device. Some people are going to get around any anti-cheat you put in place short of actual human review (which is nearly impossible to do at scale). There are plenty of online competitive games that don’t use kernal anti-cheat and don’t have their community ruined by constant cheating. Anti-cheat was a “solved” problem ages before kernal anti-cheat hit the scene.
All Kernal anti-cheat is doing is giving access to everything you do on your device to a game publisher and making you feel warm and fuzzy that you lost because of a skill reason and not someone paying for an edge when both are true. Sometimes you lose to a cheater, sometimes you lose to someone vastly better than you, and in many cases you will never know which is which. It’s like magic vs science, the end result feels the same whether you understand it or not.
Yeah but that’s expensive. It’s a whole lot cheaper to get the players to bring their rigs. Plus you’re not liable for any damages machines or security. Play at your own risk.
It’s expensive? That’s the problem? Let them fucking cheat then I guess. I feel like they can either take themselves seriously or not, but how something “hurts” the professional competitions shouldn’t be taken into account for the general public trying to enjoy games. Kernal Anti-Cheat is a fucking plague that needs to end.
Playing on console sucks. I think the best way to play competitive multiplayer games is on Linux with anticheat support. We are currently not there, but this EACv2 implementation might be the best way in the future.
I agree but I have a big issue with this if it’s being the reason for what makes a company release on a console vs a pc
I mean, why wouldn’t they? Like, say you’re making, oh, a deathmatch shooter. Cheating kinda ruins gameplay for players. If the competitive multiplayer crowd winds up on console, then…shrugs that’s where you do game development.
The PC world really pioneered a lot of competitive (remote) multiplayer game genres because PCs with network connections were widespread before consoles with network connections were. And to some extent, genres adapted to PC hardware rather than console hardware. High-speed twitch mouse+keyboard—PC hardware—first-person shooters dominated in the late '90s and early 2000s. That’s what players who could play the games had. MOBAs are often (unless things have changed recently) adapted to the mouse.
But I don’t think that there’s any fundamental link between PC hardware and competitive multiplayer games. You could make games adapted to console hardware just as well. And if it’s more important to prioritize a level playing field and avoiding cheating for competitive multiplayer games…I mean, sure, I’d focus on console releases too.
The flip side of that is that I think that in general, the PC is a better platform than consoles for non-multiplayer-competitive games, and if those don’t make it to consoles…shrugs I mean, same thing, just cutting the other direction.
Shooters are the best possible example of consoles not being ideal for certain games. Give me a keyboard and mouse and I’ll potentially beat the best shooter champion trying to struggle through playing an fps with a controller.
To be fair a console is just a locked down pc these days. There’s no reason technically why you couldn’t use a mouse and keyboard. The only reason is because they’re focused on couch play and lack of interest I think.
they’re focused on couch play
Right, exactly. It’s definitely possible for some games to be playable on console with mouse and keyboard, but given that it’s not the norm you definitely may have issues. A serious fps player likely would not want to switch to a console without some convincing.
I agree. I mean, SteamOS also exists now. Maybe valve could introduce some lockdown mode where you get no kernel access as the user for these types of games or something. I don’t know.
Either way, there has to be a way to solve this problem without kernel level anti cheat.
there has to be a way to solve this problem without kernel level anti cheat.
My understanding is that the solution is and always has been to write a good network subsystem for your game/engine. That’s not easy, so most developers would rather spend time on the gameplay and outsource the cheating concerns to the ultimate sledgehammer against cheating: full freaking kernel access. It’s honestly terrifying what could happen granting random companies that access, and it’s probably a miracle we haven’t seen a million users have their data leaked, deleted, corrupted, etc.
Give me a keyboard and mouse and I’ll potentially beat the best shooter champion trying to struggle through playing an fps with a controller.
that heavily depends on the game. the majority of professional Apex Legends players use gamepads because of the aim assist advantage.
would golf tournaments be improved if the ball had a strong magnetic attraction to the hole? lol I don’t think so
I’d rather the tournaments banned aim assist
Yeah, I don’t doubt that. But it’s funny that the reason for it being preferred on console is that you don’t actually have to aim well lol. Making it, imo, a shitty shooter.
oh, I’m talking about PC players using the controllers.
some argue that the stupidly strong aim assist is a way to give the console players (since there’s PC/console crossplay) a chance against KB+M users who get to use some movement techniques that aren’t possible on a controller and that make it much more difficult to hit them, but tons of people started using controllers on PC just for the aim advantage, so it’s definitely been an overkill.
Ohh, wow. Yeah that is crazy. I get that reasoning, but I would agree it’s overkill to go ahead and give the controller a leg up! The only shooter I ever could stand on a controller was Halo and that was after a lot of practice (and not having a choice, playing against friends on their xboxes). Still kinda hated it in the back of mind lol
Why is cheating bad?
In full competition you’re in a LAN, using pre-approved and configured hardware. Just let server mods decide if they want to ban cheaters or not.
This should be plainly obvious, of you want to have fun playing with strangers as the game is designed, it sucks if someone could just disable your camouflage by replacing textures with bright orange.
It’s not just about integrity of “eSports”.
That said, I just don’t play online with people I don’t know. Even without cheating online randos can be frustrating, especially in coop games.
Just let server mods decide if they want to ban cheaters or not.
This solves your complaint.
This seems worse than just dual booting Windows, which you’d end up having to dual boot Linux if the reason you got into Linux was to get away from sketchy permissions.
I don’t like the normalization of this type of anticheat for Linux, and if other games adopt this it seems like this would lead to a worse situation than having games not support Linux if more Linux games start adopting this EACv2 requirement.
Really? Even Microsoft is working to get this crap out of the kernel…
EAC v2 is technically not in the kernel, it uses existing Linux security features to get the same level of control over your computer AFAIK. Which is probably what Microsoft is aiming for too
r/fuckepic /s
