With the way they’re acting, you’d think that these dudes wanted Republicans to maintain control. Like, I don’t have a lot of faith in democrats to actually get the shit done that they need to, but the defeatism is absolutely absurd.
I was spending my time volunteering for Democrats campaigns, and I’m still barely enthused with the result.
It’s a very small step forward in a possibility of a government that works for its people. But anyone smart on here knows that goes much more fine-grained than the color maps.
(Red is obvious. But blue? Blue is still many shades of gray)
It’s not defeatism. It’s acknowledging the reality of the situation. They can pass all the wonderful legislation they want. Trump will veto it and they do not have a veto proof majority. He has already said he is going to become “Mr. Veto”.
What a status quo comment, 2n2voa. Whether its easily successful or not, the dem reps should be fighting, and doing their job as a check and balance on the executive branch.
I swear to god the double trauma of COVID and Trump during formative periods of some peoples’ lives made it pathologically impossible for them to take a win for even a day or two. That’s how you burn the fuck out. Don’t rest on your laurels, but making people feel like nothing is ever enough is how you get them to stop showing up.
I’ve always been a fan of the color red. Imagine if (let me dream) the republican party falls and the DSA can take red as their color against the establishment dems’ blue. Fighting on the red side would feel good then!
Gonna need like 50 years to wash the stank off that color. Every time I see a red baseball cap I get alarmed and concerned about a very untrustworthy person I should avoid. Usually it’s just a sports team hat but it never fails to raise my blood pressure.
Its much more likely that the DNC would assume the mantle of a fallen republican party, and change their color. They were always only pretend blue anyway.
Believe it or not, the colors were reversed or kinda random for a long time actually. Dems were red, GoP blue. Iirc, that didn’t shift until 2000, lol.
I see it a lot in organizing, like taking even a second to breathe is going to accidentally infect you with an airborne centrist virus.
And then the going gets rough and all the “We can rest after the revolution” types are burnt out so they start publicly infighting at the first disagreement because they’re tired and hopeless and miserable.
They probably wanted progressive wing to collapse before getting back in the seat. Now people have a reference point to compare them to and hopefully democrats that can’t live up to that will get rooted out instead.
You’d think that but have a look at hexbear’s midterms containment thread. The way they speak about it internally is different. They are very happy the Republicans lost, they jsut don’t care that it’s the democrats who won.
I blocked the “Tankie Triad” so I don’t even see their fascist propaganda. Because I experienced it on multiple instances, I literally can’t imagine using the Fediverse while still having see all their bad-faith shit…
With the way they’re acting, you’d think that these dudes wanted Republicans to maintain control.
Oh believe me, they do. I’ve literally been told how much more awful Democrats are than Republicans. IIRC, the reasoning behind that was some vague shit about liberals watering down true leftism or something. Like, yeah, one side wants to establish a fascist totalitarian government and has literally set out to murdering foreigners and dissenters with ICE, but hey, your identity politics are more important.
As “one of those people” you are talking about, we’ve been here before. Yes, it feels awesome to get such a decisive victory over the republicans. I’ve seen this before. Over and over again. The pendulum has swung back to the left. But, just because we voted in a bunch of Dems, hell even a bunch of Socialists, that doesn’t mean they will, or even can, fix the most broken parts of this system. Democrats have enabled and even facilitated some of the worst aspects of what we’re seeing right now from Trump and Republicans. I mean, you yourself even admit it: “I don’t have a lot of faith in democrats to actually get the shit done that they need to”.
The difference is, we know what needs to be done. A really famous guy wrote about it over a 100 years ago. Having Blue majority didn’t improve anybody’s material conditions in the past. Why would it now? Yes, they’re “less bad”, but Dems are still pretty bad. What makes this time different?
I love the outcome of the election. It was a bloodbath. But I’m not deluding myself that wholesale change will ever come from national electeds. Defeatist? Maybe. I’m just tempering my expectations, even from DSA endorsed winners.
this post sums it up best imo. Prove me wrong. Prove all of us MLs and “tAnKiEs” wrong. Prove to us that voting can and does work, that we can materially improve people’s situations without protest.
Don’t get me wrong, I see what you’re saying and I generally agree with your leftist sentiments.
That said, you are incorrect that the Democrats have been totally unsuccessful in improving material conditions for people. I’m with you that it hasn’t nearly been far enough, but they did accomplish significant things for women and black people.
JFK passed the equal pay act. LBJ passed the civil rights act. Clinton passed the violence against women act. These things had an effect that was tangible, even if we need more.
In Texas, my grandmother wasn’t able to have her own bank account without my grandfather signing a permission note until John Connally, a Democrat, passed the Marital Property Act of 1967. My mother never had that problem because a Democrat changed the conditions for women in this country.
Do I want a true left to rise in the United States? Yes. Do I think the Democrats have any hope of fixing capitalism? No. BUT, this victory is sweet, and I’ll be raising a glass to the Democrats today anyway.
JFK passed the equal pay act. LBJ passed the civil rights act.
You’re skipping why those passed when they did. Postwar US was in a red scare, Communism spreading across Europe, fear of uprisings at home, and that fear forced progressive concessions. The one era of capitalism people romanticize is that one, and it was shaped by fear of Communism plus massive grassroots working-class movements. JFK and LBJ didn’t pass those laws out of kindness. Cities were burning, people were organizing at rates this country had never seen, demanding better material conditions.
Clinton passed the violence against women act
This law was very limited and a classic neolib policy. It did not, in fact, dismantle any systems of oppression. It was another concession to the feminist “radicals” of the era.
In Texas, my grandmother wasn’t able to have her own bank account without my grandfather signing a permission note until John Connally, a Democrat, passed the Marital Property Act of 1967. My mother never had that problem because a Democrat changed the conditions for women in this country.
Democrats didn’t do this though. That’s my whole point. Sure they may have signed the law, but the pressure and the framing came from socialists and activists, through fear of revolution, strikes, boycotts. Yours is a standard liberal talking point, and it whitewashes history and erases the struggle that was actually fought for.
Do I want a true left to rise in the United States? Yes. Do I think the Democrats have any hope of fixing capitalism? No. BUT, this victory is sweet, and I’ll be raising a glass to the Democrats today anyway.
On this we agree. Victory was sweet yesterday. I’m mostly celebrating. But we need to continue to organize and fight for what we want. Capitalists and billionaire oligarchs will not just give us what we want out of the kindness of their hearts. That’s simply not how any of this works. Don’t become a “If Harris won we’d be at brunch” kind of person.
The Democrats fought for same sex marriage when the Republicans have always been anti-LGBTQ. Republicans spent so much money on ads that lied about us wanting to marry animals, etc. and the Democrats were still able to push it through.
yes, broadly dems fight for lgbtq … when it’s beneficial to them. For most Dems, lgbtq rights are just a bargaining chip, and not embedded into the platform as it is for DSA, for example.
“Corporations are fine with exhibiting symbolically pro-queer behavior—perhaps sponsoring a gay pride festival or lobbying the Governor of North Carolina—but only when it’s marketable”
“The rights of queer people do not depend upon the whims of capital. A broad coalition of the left can fight against the advances of the religious right. We must reject organizations like the Human Rights Campaign, who are funded by and work closely with capital to preserve the capitalist status quo. In doing so, queer people must build alternative organizations that fight for our rights from the perspective of the working class. Only by combating capitalism, and continuing to build a socialism infused with queer radicalism, will queer people dismantle the oppressive structures which harm us.”
The conversation I was responding to was comparing Republicans vs. Democrats. Someone was trying to make it seem they’re the same. I was just offering a counterpoint.
yes, broadly dems fight for lgbtq … when it’s beneficial to them. For most Dems, lgbtq rights are just a bargaining chip
As opposed to Republicans, which actively oppose any LGBTQ rights. They are nowhere near the same.
As far as I’m aware there is no official DSA party (correct me if I’m wrong), the DSA aligned candidates usually run as a Democrat. Have any ever ran as a Republican?
DSA uses the Dem ballot line because there’s virtually no path to victory as a 3rd party. That doesn’t make them Democrats.
Dems and Reps are virtually the same. They both serve capital and corporate interests. The same billionaires funding the Reps also fund the Dems. Nothing has materially improved in decades. In fact, the complete opposite has happened: things have gotten progressively worse every year no matter if the guy in charge is blue or red. But sure, Dems are “winning” the culture war.
Respectfully, stand down, comrade! I’m on your side and not becoming a Kamala brunch enthusiast. I appreciate your opinions on history and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
The fight definitely continues, but a little win feels nice. I can go back to my usual full on class warfare in the morning.
A theocratic autocracy will rise from the ashes. Unless you kids have done more prep work that you let on, your not winning the war if it goes hot, and the crazies with stockpiles and organization in place have the advantage over unprepared forum users.
Socialists believe in a real try at social equality. Tankies believe you must murder people or at least ignore large amounts of suffering to force it in one fell swoop.
“tankie” is pejorative term used by fascists and libs for Socialists and Communists. the people who use the term tankie unironically often denounce many or all existing Socialist states (Cuba, China, DPRK, etc) as “authoritarian”.
I repeat: You have a very warped view of what Socialists believe in.
“tankie” is pejorative term used by fascists and libs for Socialists and Communists. the people who use the term tankie unironically often denounce many or all existing Socialist states (Cuba, China, DPRK, etc) as “authoritarian”.
No it isn’t. It’s a pejorative term for fake leftists who do not have regard for human life even though that is supposed to be the only concern they have. Sure, it might get overused or incorrectly applied on this platform. But that’s because we’ve seen so many damn true tankies.
Its clear how liberals call themselves leftists and real leftists as tankies, “regard for human life” is not a marxist position, its a moral position and marxism is not moralism, its materialism and deals with real stuff affecting lives scientifically. You dont know anything about the left, you are a liberal.
It’s a pejorative for what you perceive as fake leftists, but in actuality are just the group of people that support the DPRK, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. You perceive this support as a disregard for human life, because you view these countries negatively. The actual base of what makes a tankie is support for these socialist countries, though, your opinion on them is not the definition. In any case, by your definition the Black Panther Party were fake leftists with no regard for human life:
In reality, tankies are just the socialists that support the actuality of existing revolution, the Black Panthers being predecessors to the modern tankie in America.
I’m not going to lie, as an outsider this always seems to be the case. Could you explain what you actually want and what you could see realistically happening if the fascists won?
Not who you asked, but I want socialism, which requires revolution, which itself requires a mass working class revolutionary party, a militant and class conscious working class, and instability within the capitalist class. The first two are directly actionable through joining socialist orgs like PSL and doing large amounts of outreach, agitation, etc. The latter is out of our control, no matter if the Democrats or Republicans win in elections, and is more a matter of course as capitalism decays.
Fascism isn’t something that can be elected. Fascism is when the capitalist class oversteps the legal boundaries and restricts the civil rights of the country, when bourgeois democracy is replaced with outright direct rule by capital. Republicans winning or losing does not actually increase or decrease the chance of fascism, because fascism is a response to economic conditions and rising socialist organizing outside of the legal system.
This is important, because it means Democrats winning does not stop fascism. Fascism is out of the control of the working class, and can only be prevented by socialism, and stopped once in action by fighting it directly. In either case, mass socialist organizing is both the vaccine and the cure for fascism, depending on the timeline.
Fascism is when the capitalist class oversteps the legal boundaries and restricts the civil rights of the country, when bourgeois democracy is replaced with outright direct rule by capital.
Seems like democrats getting elected does help alleviate fascism then?
Democrats getting elected doesn’t alleviate the risk of fascism, because as I said, it’s the capitalist class overstepping the legal boundaries. Democrats can legislate all they want against fascism (which they won’t do, let’s be honest), but the point is that capital does not care what is legal, and holds the actual power in society by owning the commanding heights of the economy. It can directly implement fascism without the consent of the DNC.
As for fighting it directly, a socialist revolution prevents the risk of fascism by taking the commanding heights from the capitalist class. In the case of fascism, socialist revolution is what can end it most effectively. In either case, armed struggle is almost certainly necessary, but it’s far cleaner before fascism actually is implemented than after.
There is always a risk of fascism. My point is that fascist policies are implemented and acted upon far more often under R rule than D, and prosecuted more under D than R.
I think you’re still not getting how fascism works. The party in power makes absolutely no difference on whether or not fascism is implemented, and the drive for fascism is related to the ability for the capitalist class to continue to effectively control the population, which decreases in times of economic duress, and which is necessarily a ticking clock in capitalism as it is unsustainable.
what you could see realistically happening if the fascists won?
Arguably, and I would, the fascists are already in control. Just think of the tech enshittification at the hands of technofascists. Think of the endless wars; how much say in those wars do you truly believe you have? Think of the military budget outspending every single other country combined. We are the most powerful and richest country in the history of this planet … and 50% of americans can’t afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Americans can’t afford groceries. Real wages have been stuck in the 1970s. We are bankrupting ourselves with medical and student debt. Nobody can afford a house. Kids still in cages, guantanamo bay still operating, ICE record funding every year,
How much say do you have at your job? Unions are being squashed and suppressed. Have you attended a pro-gaza rally lately? How did the police treat you?
…I want a better world in which the 99% actually have a say, actually have a better life, and we don’t have 1% of people hoarding all the power and wealth of the world. This IS possible.
I have seen that sentiment directly expressed many times and I’ve seen it implied many times. Still see it despite blocking the shit out of sources of those kinds of opinions. Just today someone said to me “if you don’t think it should be burned down now, what would it take?”
I’ve seen a lot of hysteria around “tankies” since I started using Lemmy and I gotta say I really don’t get it. Yes, there are people here who are to the left of Democrats. No, that doesn’t make them the enemy, or secretly MAGA or Russian or whatever. They just… disagree with liberals. I see opinions attributed to “everyone from a .ml community” that I’ve never seen from any of the actual users. People gleefully brag about blocking swaths of other users, yet I’ve almost never seen any .ml user actually being as toxic as they get branded. I’m pretty sure I’ve even heard people say that you are a particularly bad one, but I haven’t witnessed it.
Also, lemmy was created by ml’s right? It’s one thing to have very little tolerance for different political opinions, but it’s another thing entirely to literally just be the gray characters from this meme and still somehow think you’re in the right.
I’ve seen a lot of hysteria around “tankies” since I started using Lemmy and I gotta say I really don’t get it
I used to think this but then discovered that most of the actual tankies are blocked by my instance.
By contrast I pointed my browser to lemmy.ml just now and the front page includes a celebration of “Russia Unity Day”, a reading group for “Soviet Democracy”, and three “good news only” type puff pieces about China. There’s definitely a solid bloc of propagandists out there.
As others have said, they want to run that kind of instance I don’t actually have any huge beef with it. To an extent I think it’s good to have some other perspectives and news sources. Just be aware that that’s who people are talking about when they talk about “tankies”, not the people who post stuff critical of the Democratic Party.
Most content from .ml users likely isn’t even political, so people certainly overstate how prevalent radicalism is. Lemmy is part of the fediverse and isn’t a reserved political space any more than any other part of it. But you are much more likely to see controversial positions from the “tankie triad” compared to other instances and other social media. It is one of the few big instances where you can find popular support for Russia over Ukraine or denying the Uyghur genocide for example.
I think people generally think of themselves as progressive when they come here, and it might be their first run-in with revolutionary socialists. They get caught between their progressive beliefs, largely around the Bernie/AOC area, and this suddenly new group (to them) of people that despise reformism and the Democrats almost as much as the Republicans. It creates a lot of friction, IMO. And yea, Lemmy was and is made by MLs, which means we have a permanent foothold here.
Have you tried browsing hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml? Lemmy.ml has its own vibe because we don’t really defederate from anyone, but Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net are pretty good examples of what “tankies” are like when we aren’t getting into constant squabbles with liberals. You’ll see tons of queer people, a lot of passionate people, and a lot of normalcy, to be honest.
People should run their lemmy instance as they want.
The non stop feudposting about what people do in their own instance is ridiculous. Block the instance and move on with your life if you need to. Block me to while youre at it! Who cares?
It seems there is some other agenda at play with those who are on this dumb ass crusade against .ml
All the tankies I’ve talked to seem to be fully in favor of accelerationism – just wanting whatever will cause the most damage to the US the fastest. So, yeah – they were absolutely rooting for the Republicans.
I am hoping that the accelerationism this country needed was a cultural one rather than a violent one – that the conservatives showed so much ugly to the world that the American people pushed the Overton window a bit away from conservatism and will continue to reject that whole world of bullshit in the future.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. - JFK
This is why I always advocate for replacing First-past-the-post voting with a voting system that gives 3rd parties the freedom to run for election without a spoiler effect. But I guess blue maga thinks the democratic party is more important then the United States of America.
I guess blue maga thinks the democratic party is more important then the United States of America.
When it comes to the party leadership and many politicians, absolutely.
I think ordinary people who are registered democrats and “vote blue no matter who” types are much more receptive to the idea of a sensible voting system. Ranked choice has the name recognition, but there are better systems like STAR.
Even here on Lemmy, we have plenty of debates/arguments of “vote blue because of harm reduction and (first past the post + game theory)” versus “vote for the candidate that matches your ideals even if they aren’t one of the two that has a chance of winning.” What I do not recall seeing, however, are debates about how first-past-the-post is actually the superior voting system because of reasons XYZ.
Any “arguments” in favor that I can think of are typical conservative bad faith bullshit talking points. The people do not favor it, except probably for a big chunk that gets their information about the world from the talking heads’ conservative bad faith bullshit talking points.
I’ve been highly disappointed by the American voters before, and I expect I will be again.
But, yeah. I’d wager that a simple fuel price graph could predict the outcome of the next several elections. If it’s high, people will vote out whoever is currently in power.
That’s tankie propaganda, which seems to be the whole reason for you creating your account.
Tankies are the violent authoritarian wing of socialists, who believe liberals, landlords, bankers, intellectuals, etc. should be put to death. Stalin, Mao, etc.
They’re kinda like fascists as far as loving violence and purging their undesirables except the boot is a different flavor:
“We will live in a utopia if you merely give us the power to kill everyone we dislike!”
Because it’s propaganda meant to frame anyone left of chuck schumer as violent terrorist while the democratic party will continue to outright murder people in the middle east? Like are we fucking gooning off here?
Equating intellectuals to… Landlords?
It reeks of desperation and red scare tactics lmao. Nooo leftists are just like MAGA! The same way MAGA is anti-intellectual, lefties are anti-landlord!!
You have to admit you’re posting bot propaganda meant for very stupid people, like c’mon
You understand comments are public, so it makes no sense to lie about previous interactions, right?
In any case, yes, this explicitly is propaganda, specifically nazi propaganda. Circa 1930s, repackaged in the 1960s.
Tankies are the violent authoritarian
Define either of these words in a way that excludes any state that has ever or could ever exist. You can’t. Every single state is violent, and it is authoritarian. The entire concept of politics is to decide who has the monopoly of power, and for what it is used.
wing of socialists,
All socialists are violent because:
who believe liberals, landlords, bankers, intellectuals, etc. should be put to death. Stalin, Mao, etc.
Besides liberals and intellectuals, both of which are not including in the list of ‘victims’ of ‘violent’ socialists, all socialists should want the deaths of landlords and bankers.
They cannot be reformed, see the Kulaks who chose to kill themselves rather than pay their workers a wage and collectivize their land.
They’re kinda like fascists as far as loving violence and purging their undesirables except the boot is a different flavor:
The only possible way you could believe this is if you think all violence is bad, which makes you a naive, ignorant child; but the common reason to state this is to equivocate violence based on immutable characteristics, and violence based on mutable characteristics. Which is what nazis are want to do, in order to justify their unjustifable actions.
Practically every single adult on the planet accepts that violence is necessary. The only disagreement is to whom and to what extent said violence should be done. Pretending this isn’t the case is again either ignorance or intentional theatrical naivety.
“We will live in a utopia if you merely give us the power to kill everyone we dislike!”
What is your solution to people with unlimited wealth, no morality, and a psychotic devotion to harming society?
You can’t imprison them forever if you’re a poor country. You can’t send them to the fields to try to reform them, they are physically incapable of it at that point. You can’t let them live free, otherwise you will spend half your hard earned resources on defending against them from within and without.
I recognize that the group called tankies is the group of people that supports the DPRK, PRC, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba, and I support them, so I belong to the group called tankies. I’m self-aware of that, so don’t pretend my support for these countries isn’t going to get me called a tankie.
I mean Schumer and Jeffries are out there taking the “high” road again, so the first indication that positive change is coming would be those two fucking off to the other side of the sun.
Do I know you? I’ve seen you make reasonable comments and then today multiple doomer ones. I don’t think I know you, but I do think you seem somewhat open to feedback even if you do make excuses.
They’ll tell you that they do. I’ve had some tell me that electoralism won’t bring about socialism and things have to get way worse before the people revolt.
Why do you think this meme is applicable here? Calfpupa never said socialism never works, she said you can’t vote your way to it. If your point is that you’re happy with the neo-colonialism of northern Europe, yeah we know the liberal position.
Norway voted themselves into socialist policies. Then leftists say it’s not Socialism. But when you say it’s bad in a different argument, they are held up as an example of Socialism. If the voting continues as it has in the past it could become full socialism.
The arguments that are in favor of social democracies are those around the effectiveness of social welfare programs and how effective compassion is as a political root, but that doesn’t make them fractionally socialist and they aren’t held up as socialist countries. I feel like a lot of this follows from a view of “socialism is when the government does stuff”, which I doubt was the definition Calfpupa was using.
What voting trends have you seen that suggest a move towards democratization of the economy over privatization that would be in line with complete democratic control? Further what trends have you seen in freeing neo-colonies from debt trappings and foreign ownership?
With the way they’re acting, you’d think that these dudes wanted Republicans to maintain control. Like, I don’t have a lot of faith in democrats to actually get the shit done that they need to, but the defeatism is absolutely absurd.
I was spending my time volunteering for Democrats campaigns, and I’m still barely enthused with the result.
It’s a very small step forward in a possibility of a government that works for its people. But anyone smart on here knows that goes much more fine-grained than the color maps.
(Red is obvious. But blue? Blue is still many shades of gray)
It’s not defeatism. It’s acknowledging the reality of the situation. They can pass all the wonderful legislation they want. Trump will veto it and they do not have a veto proof majority. He has already said he is going to become “Mr. Veto”.
What a status quo comment, 2n2voa. Whether its easily successful or not, the dem reps should be fighting, and doing their job as a check and balance on the executive branch.
I swear to god the double trauma of COVID and Trump during formative periods of some peoples’ lives made it pathologically impossible for them to take a win for even a day or two. That’s how you burn the fuck out. Don’t rest on your laurels, but making people feel like nothing is ever enough is how you get them to stop showing up.
We have plenty of wins, built on the hard work of working class Americans door knocking, phone banking, canvassing, signature gathering, etc.
I’ve always been a fan of the color red. Imagine if (let me dream) the republican party falls and the DSA can take red as their color against the establishment dems’ blue. Fighting on the red side would feel good then!
Gonna need like 50 years to wash the stank off that color. Every time I see a red baseball cap I get alarmed and concerned about a very untrustworthy person I should avoid. Usually it’s just a sports team hat but it never fails to raise my blood pressure.
Mario cosplayers in shambles right now!
Haha somehow in that context it never crosses my mind
I bet Mario would be pro-union
Can’t say I disagree.
Its much more likely that the DNC would assume the mantle of a fallen republican party, and change their color. They were always only pretend blue anyway.
Believe it or not, the colors were reversed or kinda random for a long time actually. Dems were red, GoP blue. Iirc, that didn’t shift until 2000, lol.
As I remember it, the colors were more business pinstripe gray for the conservatives and blue for the democrats.
Would be more like the UK parties’ colors then.
I see it a lot in organizing, like taking even a second to breathe is going to accidentally infect you with an airborne centrist virus.
And then the going gets rough and all the “We can rest after the revolution” types are burnt out so they start publicly infighting at the first disagreement because they’re tired and hopeless and miserable.
IMO, you should have higher standards.
https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/james-carville-says-he-prefers-gop-win-midterms-because-dems-would-be-hostage-to-dsa-democratic-socialists-of-america
Carville hasn’t been remotely relevant in a decade.
They probably wanted progressive wing to collapse before getting back in the seat. Now people have a reference point to compare them to and hopefully democrats that can’t live up to that will get rooted out instead.
You’d think that but have a look at hexbear’s midterms containment thread. The way they speak about it internally is different. They are very happy the Republicans lost, they jsut don’t care that it’s the democrats who won.
Hexbear is as toxic as 4chan I’ll pass looking at any of their shit.
I blocked the “Tankie Triad” so I don’t even see their fascist propaganda. Because I experienced it on multiple instances, I literally can’t imagine using the Fediverse while still having see all their bad-faith shit…
fascist when le “authoritarian”
Ditto.
I’m so glad my instance is defederated from them
So, are they lying to us, or are they lying to each other?
Neither, people read everything through hermeneutics of suspicion or innocence and pre-judge accordingly.
For anyone who doesn’t know what hermeneutics is, it’s when you read things through the eyes of this guy:
That’s hermaneutics you heretic! Or hermanneutics if you’re trying to hide from Gloria Vanderbilt.
Oh believe me, they do. I’ve literally been told how much more awful Democrats are than Republicans. IIRC, the reasoning behind that was some vague shit about liberals watering down true leftism or something. Like, yeah, one side wants to establish a fascist totalitarian government and has literally set out to murdering foreigners and dissenters with ICE, but hey, your identity politics are more important.
Immigrants and dissenters have always been murdered. And children and women.
As “one of those people” you are talking about, we’ve been here before. Yes, it feels awesome to get such a decisive victory over the republicans. I’ve seen this before. Over and over again. The pendulum has swung back to the left. But, just because we voted in a bunch of Dems, hell even a bunch of Socialists, that doesn’t mean they will, or even can, fix the most broken parts of this system. Democrats have enabled and even facilitated some of the worst aspects of what we’re seeing right now from Trump and Republicans. I mean, you yourself even admit it: “I don’t have a lot of faith in democrats to actually get the shit done that they need to”.
The difference is, we know what needs to be done. A really famous guy wrote about it over a 100 years ago. Having Blue majority didn’t improve anybody’s material conditions in the past. Why would it now? Yes, they’re “less bad”, but Dems are still pretty bad. What makes this time different?
I love the outcome of the election. It was a bloodbath. But I’m not deluding myself that wholesale change will ever come from national electeds. Defeatist? Maybe. I’m just tempering my expectations, even from DSA endorsed winners.
this post sums it up best imo. Prove me wrong. Prove all of us MLs and “tAnKiEs” wrong. Prove to us that voting can and does work, that we can materially improve people’s situations without protest.
Don’t get me wrong, I see what you’re saying and I generally agree with your leftist sentiments.
That said, you are incorrect that the Democrats have been totally unsuccessful in improving material conditions for people. I’m with you that it hasn’t nearly been far enough, but they did accomplish significant things for women and black people.
JFK passed the equal pay act. LBJ passed the civil rights act. Clinton passed the violence against women act. These things had an effect that was tangible, even if we need more.
In Texas, my grandmother wasn’t able to have her own bank account without my grandfather signing a permission note until John Connally, a Democrat, passed the Marital Property Act of 1967. My mother never had that problem because a Democrat changed the conditions for women in this country.
Do I want a true left to rise in the United States? Yes. Do I think the Democrats have any hope of fixing capitalism? No. BUT, this victory is sweet, and I’ll be raising a glass to the Democrats today anyway.
You’re skipping why those passed when they did. Postwar US was in a red scare, Communism spreading across Europe, fear of uprisings at home, and that fear forced progressive concessions. The one era of capitalism people romanticize is that one, and it was shaped by fear of Communism plus massive grassroots working-class movements. JFK and LBJ didn’t pass those laws out of kindness. Cities were burning, people were organizing at rates this country had never seen, demanding better material conditions.
This law was very limited and a classic neolib policy. It did not, in fact, dismantle any systems of oppression. It was another concession to the feminist “radicals” of the era.
Democrats didn’t do this though. That’s my whole point. Sure they may have signed the law, but the pressure and the framing came from socialists and activists, through fear of revolution, strikes, boycotts. Yours is a standard liberal talking point, and it whitewashes history and erases the struggle that was actually fought for.
On this we agree. Victory was sweet yesterday. I’m mostly celebrating. But we need to continue to organize and fight for what we want. Capitalists and billionaire oligarchs will not just give us what we want out of the kindness of their hearts. That’s simply not how any of this works. Don’t become a “If Harris won we’d be at brunch” kind of person.
The Democrats fought for same sex marriage when the Republicans have always been anti-LGBTQ. Republicans spent so much money on ads that lied about us wanting to marry animals, etc. and the Democrats were still able to push it through.
yes, broadly dems fight for lgbtq … when it’s beneficial to them. For most Dems, lgbtq rights are just a bargaining chip, and not embedded into the platform as it is for DSA, for example.
The conversation I was responding to was comparing Republicans vs. Democrats. Someone was trying to make it seem they’re the same. I was just offering a counterpoint.
As opposed to Republicans, which actively oppose any LGBTQ rights. They are nowhere near the same.
As far as I’m aware there is no official DSA party (correct me if I’m wrong), the DSA aligned candidates usually run as a Democrat. Have any ever ran as a Republican?
DSA uses the Dem ballot line because there’s virtually no path to victory as a 3rd party. That doesn’t make them Democrats.
Dems and Reps are virtually the same. They both serve capital and corporate interests. The same billionaires funding the Reps also fund the Dems. Nothing has materially improved in decades. In fact, the complete opposite has happened: things have gotten progressively worse every year no matter if the guy in charge is blue or red. But sure, Dems are “winning” the culture war.
Respectfully, stand down, comrade! I’m on your side and not becoming a Kamala brunch enthusiast. I appreciate your opinions on history and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
The fight definitely continues, but a little win feels nice. I can go back to my usual full on class warfare in the morning.
I’m more just shouting at clouds than at you specifically. Cheers! 🥃
Who said anything about without protest?
As always, voting is one of several strategies we must pursue at once … and it’s not even the most important one.
roosevelt
🧐
The tankies want Trump to win because they think that after he’s destroyed the US, a socialist utopia will rise from the ashes.
A theocratic autocracy will rise from the ashes. Unless you kids have done more prep work that you let on, your not winning the war if it goes hot, and the crazies with stockpiles and organization in place have the advantage over unprepared forum users.
There will be several theocracies arising in various places. And they’ll all be at eternal holy war with each other.
At least some one will keep the ashes warm for us.
Not a single tankie believes in utopic socialism
Of course not. But it’s what they claim to believe in.
You have a very warped view of what Socialists believe in.
Socialists believe in a real try at social equality. Tankies believe you must murder people or at least ignore large amounts of suffering to force it in one fell swoop.
yes, because tankies arent utopian and they know real change takes sacrifices, and it has happened throughout history
Real utopians are those who think we can liberate mankind without death and violence
I’m talking specifically about tankies, you know that kind of people who worship the likes of Putin and Xi and root for Hamas and the Houthis.
I dont care about putin and Xi but I support hamas and houthis for resisting zionist forces
what does that make me?
Supporting fascists makes you a fascist. Just because they fight against other fascists doesn’t make it better in any way.
“tankie” is pejorative term used by fascists and libs for Socialists and Communists. the people who use the term tankie unironically often denounce many or all existing Socialist states (Cuba, China, DPRK, etc) as “authoritarian”.
I repeat: You have a very warped view of what Socialists believe in.
Yeah. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Socialists are not tankies, and tankies are not socialists (despite often claiming otherwise).
“tankie” is pejorative term used by fascists and libs for Socialists and Communists. the people who use the term tankie unironically often denounce many or all existing Socialist states (Cuba, China, DPRK, etc) as “authoritarian”.
No it isn’t. It’s a pejorative term for fake leftists who do not have regard for human life even though that is supposed to be the only concern they have. Sure, it might get overused or incorrectly applied on this platform. But that’s because we’ve seen so many damn true tankies.
Its clear how liberals call themselves leftists and real leftists as tankies, “regard for human life” is not a marxist position, its a moral position and marxism is not moralism, its materialism and deals with real stuff affecting lives scientifically. You dont know anything about the left, you are a liberal.
It’s a pejorative for what you perceive as fake leftists, but in actuality are just the group of people that support the DPRK, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. You perceive this support as a disregard for human life, because you view these countries negatively. The actual base of what makes a tankie is support for these socialist countries, though, your opinion on them is not the definition. In any case, by your definition the Black Panther Party were fake leftists with no regard for human life:
In reality, tankies are just the socialists that support the actuality of existing revolution, the Black Panthers being predecessors to the modern tankie in America.
Everybody should denounce the DPRK.
there is nuance
I denounce every single nation state past present and future. These nations divide the working class against ourselves. Fuck them all.
Because the Capitalists and billionaires told you to?
No?
Lmao show us anybody claiming any of this shit.
Not even that – they just want to clear the way for Russia/China to gain more power.
This is very incorrect.
I’m not going to lie, as an outsider this always seems to be the case. Could you explain what you actually want and what you could see realistically happening if the fascists won?
Not who you asked, but I want socialism, which requires revolution, which itself requires a mass working class revolutionary party, a militant and class conscious working class, and instability within the capitalist class. The first two are directly actionable through joining socialist orgs like PSL and doing large amounts of outreach, agitation, etc. The latter is out of our control, no matter if the Democrats or Republicans win in elections, and is more a matter of course as capitalism decays.
Fascism isn’t something that can be elected. Fascism is when the capitalist class oversteps the legal boundaries and restricts the civil rights of the country, when bourgeois democracy is replaced with outright direct rule by capital. Republicans winning or losing does not actually increase or decrease the chance of fascism, because fascism is a response to economic conditions and rising socialist organizing outside of the legal system.
This is important, because it means Democrats winning does not stop fascism. Fascism is out of the control of the working class, and can only be prevented by socialism, and stopped once in action by fighting it directly. In either case, mass socialist organizing is both the vaccine and the cure for fascism, depending on the timeline.
Seems like democrats getting elected does help alleviate fascism then?
Also, what do you mean by “fighting it directly”?
Democrats getting elected doesn’t alleviate the risk of fascism, because as I said, it’s the capitalist class overstepping the legal boundaries. Democrats can legislate all they want against fascism (which they won’t do, let’s be honest), but the point is that capital does not care what is legal, and holds the actual power in society by owning the commanding heights of the economy. It can directly implement fascism without the consent of the DNC.
As for fighting it directly, a socialist revolution prevents the risk of fascism by taking the commanding heights from the capitalist class. In the case of fascism, socialist revolution is what can end it most effectively. In either case, armed struggle is almost certainly necessary, but it’s far cleaner before fascism actually is implemented than after.
There is always a risk of fascism. My point is that fascist policies are implemented and acted upon far more often under R rule than D, and prosecuted more under D than R.
I think you’re still not getting how fascism works. The party in power makes absolutely no difference on whether or not fascism is implemented, and the drive for fascism is related to the ability for the capitalist class to continue to effectively control the population, which decreases in times of economic duress, and which is necessarily a ticking clock in capitalism as it is unsustainable.
Simply put: I don’t want billionaires controlling every single aspect of society, as they do now.
If you’d like to read more, I agree with all of this.. I also agree with all of this.
Arguably, and I would, the fascists are already in control. Just think of the tech enshittification at the hands of technofascists. Think of the endless wars; how much say in those wars do you truly believe you have? Think of the military budget outspending every single other country combined. We are the most powerful and richest country in the history of this planet … and 50% of americans can’t afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Americans can’t afford groceries. Real wages have been stuck in the 1970s. We are bankrupting ourselves with medical and student debt. Nobody can afford a house. Kids still in cages, guantanamo bay still operating, ICE record funding every year,
How much say do you have at your job? Unions are being squashed and suppressed. Have you attended a pro-gaza rally lately? How did the police treat you?
…I want a better world in which the 99% actually have a say, actually have a better life, and we don’t have 1% of people hoarding all the power and wealth of the world. This IS possible.
That sounds amazing, but somehow our methods for achieving it always end up opposed.
I have seen that sentiment directly expressed many times and I’ve seen it implied many times. Still see it despite blocking the shit out of sources of those kinds of opinions. Just today someone said to me “if you don’t think it should be burned down now, what would it take?”
No, nobody has said this, lmao.
I’ve seen a lot of hysteria around “tankies” since I started using Lemmy and I gotta say I really don’t get it. Yes, there are people here who are to the left of Democrats. No, that doesn’t make them the enemy, or secretly MAGA or Russian or whatever. They just… disagree with liberals. I see opinions attributed to “everyone from a .ml community” that I’ve never seen from any of the actual users. People gleefully brag about blocking swaths of other users, yet I’ve almost never seen any .ml user actually being as toxic as they get branded. I’m pretty sure I’ve even heard people say that you are a particularly bad one, but I haven’t witnessed it.
Also, lemmy was created by ml’s right? It’s one thing to have very little tolerance for different political opinions, but it’s another thing entirely to literally just be the gray characters from this meme and still somehow think you’re in the right.
I used to think this but then discovered that most of the actual tankies are blocked by my instance.
By contrast I pointed my browser to lemmy.ml just now and the front page includes a celebration of “Russia Unity Day”, a reading group for “Soviet Democracy”, and three “good news only” type puff pieces about China. There’s definitely a solid bloc of propagandists out there.
As others have said, they want to run that kind of instance I don’t actually have any huge beef with it. To an extent I think it’s good to have some other perspectives and news sources. Just be aware that that’s who people are talking about when they talk about “tankies”, not the people who post stuff critical of the Democratic Party.
Most content from .ml users likely isn’t even political, so people certainly overstate how prevalent radicalism is. Lemmy is part of the fediverse and isn’t a reserved political space any more than any other part of it. But you are much more likely to see controversial positions from the “tankie triad” compared to other instances and other social media. It is one of the few big instances where you can find popular support for Russia over Ukraine or denying the Uyghur genocide for example.
I think people generally think of themselves as progressive when they come here, and it might be their first run-in with revolutionary socialists. They get caught between their progressive beliefs, largely around the Bernie/AOC area, and this suddenly new group (to them) of people that despise reformism and the Democrats almost as much as the Republicans. It creates a lot of friction, IMO. And yea, Lemmy was and is made by MLs, which means we have a permanent foothold here.
Have you tried browsing hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml? Lemmy.ml has its own vibe because we don’t really defederate from anyone, but Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net are pretty good examples of what “tankies” are like when we aren’t getting into constant squabbles with liberals. You’ll see tons of queer people, a lot of passionate people, and a lot of normalcy, to be honest.
I like hexbears cute pictures, even if they dont like me. lol
People should run their lemmy instance as they want.
The non stop feudposting about what people do in their own instance is ridiculous. Block the instance and move on with your life if you need to. Block me to while youre at it! Who cares?
It seems there is some other agenda at play with those who are on this dumb ass crusade against .ml
Tankies don’t want a socialist anything though
The problem here is a red fascist carrying water for free and someone paid to troll on behalf of black fascists look the same on the Internet.
All the tankies I’ve talked to seem to be fully in favor of accelerationism – just wanting whatever will cause the most damage to the US the fastest. So, yeah – they were absolutely rooting for the Republicans.
I am hoping that the accelerationism this country needed was a cultural one rather than a violent one – that the conservatives showed so much ugly to the world that the American people pushed the Overton window a bit away from conservatism and will continue to reject that whole world of bullshit in the future.
It can’t just be the gas prices, right?
This is why I always advocate for replacing First-past-the-post voting with a voting system that gives 3rd parties the freedom to run for election without a spoiler effect. But I guess blue maga thinks the democratic party is more important then the United States of America.
When it comes to the party leadership and many politicians, absolutely.
I think ordinary people who are registered democrats and “vote blue no matter who” types are much more receptive to the idea of a sensible voting system. Ranked choice has the name recognition, but there are better systems like STAR.
Even here on Lemmy, we have plenty of debates/arguments of “vote blue because of harm reduction and (first past the post + game theory)” versus “vote for the candidate that matches your ideals even if they aren’t one of the two that has a chance of winning.” What I do not recall seeing, however, are debates about how first-past-the-post is actually the superior voting system because of reasons XYZ.
Any “arguments” in favor that I can think of are typical conservative bad faith bullshit talking points. The people do not favor it, except probably for a big chunk that gets their information about the world from the talking heads’ conservative bad faith bullshit talking points.
I’ve been highly disappointed by the American voters before, and I expect I will be again.
But, yeah. I’d wager that a simple fuel price graph could predict the outcome of the next several elections. If it’s high, people will vote out whoever is currently in power.
No because we know fascists would take control. We want you to read theory, join PSL, do mutual aid and help build a vanguard.
If you have enough self-awareness to call yourself a tankie, you’re not a tankie.
Tankie is just anyone to the left of burning orphans for warmth. It’s also a nazi dogwhistle.
That’s tankie propaganda, which seems to be the whole reason for you creating your account.
Tankies are the violent authoritarian wing of socialists, who believe liberals, landlords, bankers, intellectuals, etc. should be put to death. Stalin, Mao, etc.
They’re kinda like fascists as far as loving violence and purging their undesirables except the boot is a different flavor:
“We will live in a utopia if you merely give us the power to kill everyone we dislike!”
Psychotic comment, what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
I don’t see how disliking tankies is psychotic, but you’re more than welcome to explain if you feel like it.
Because it’s propaganda meant to frame anyone left of chuck schumer as violent terrorist while the democratic party will continue to outright murder people in the middle east? Like are we fucking gooning off here?
Equating intellectuals to… Landlords?
It reeks of desperation and red scare tactics lmao. Nooo leftists are just like MAGA! The same way MAGA is anti-intellectual, lefties are anti-landlord!!
You have to admit you’re posting bot propaganda meant for very stupid people, like c’mon
That’s the nazi propaganda being dogwhistled, yes.
No it isn’t. Facts that you don’t like aren’t automatically propaganda.
Yesterday when we talked about what exactly you believe as far as Stalin, Mao, et al., you just diverted into ad hominem rather than answer the question.
Want to try again?
ACAB
You understand comments are public, so it makes no sense to lie about previous interactions, right?
In any case, yes, this explicitly is propaganda, specifically nazi propaganda. Circa 1930s, repackaged in the 1960s.
Define either of these words in a way that excludes any state that has ever or could ever exist. You can’t. Every single state is violent, and it is authoritarian. The entire concept of politics is to decide who has the monopoly of power, and for what it is used.
All socialists are violent because:
Besides liberals and intellectuals, both of which are not including in the list of ‘victims’ of ‘violent’ socialists, all socialists should want the deaths of landlords and bankers.
They cannot be reformed, see the Kulaks who chose to kill themselves rather than pay their workers a wage and collectivize their land.
The only possible way you could believe this is if you think all violence is bad, which makes you a naive, ignorant child; but the common reason to state this is to equivocate violence based on immutable characteristics, and violence based on mutable characteristics. Which is what nazis are want to do, in order to justify their unjustifable actions.
Practically every single adult on the planet accepts that violence is necessary. The only disagreement is to whom and to what extent said violence should be done. Pretending this isn’t the case is again either ignorance or intentional theatrical naivety.
What is your solution to people with unlimited wealth, no morality, and a psychotic devotion to harming society?
You can’t imprison them forever if you’re a poor country. You can’t send them to the fields to try to reform them, they are physically incapable of it at that point. You can’t let them live free, otherwise you will spend half your hard earned resources on defending against them from within and without.
I recognize that the group called tankies is the group of people that supports the DPRK, PRC, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba, and I support them, so I belong to the group called tankies. I’m self-aware of that, so don’t pretend my support for these countries isn’t going to get me called a tankie.
Yeah? Can you show us one?
It would be difficult because I’ve already blocked them.
I’ll take that as a no, then.
Read the thread lmfao
I did. I see a bunch of .ml’s clearly and strongly saying that we don’t believe in accelerationism.
I mean Schumer and Jeffries are out there taking the “high” road again, so the first indication that positive change is coming would be those two fucking off to the other side of the sun.
I’m old enough to remember Blue Waves hitting the rocks of Decorum and Civility and doing fuck all. I’m not getting my hopes up ever again.
And you’re gonna try your best to pass that feeling on
If I keep these thoughts inside they’ll take me to the grippy sock hotel.
Plus you know me. You know this isn’t my best. I’m sorry to disappoint but I’ve been dealing with the bullshit that happens no matter who got elected.
🫂
Do I know you? I’ve seen you make reasonable comments and then today multiple doomer ones. I don’t think I know you, but I do think you seem somewhat open to feedback even if you do make excuses.
I make doomer comments all the time
Noted.
U mad?
BLue mAgA
They’ll tell you that they do. I’ve had some tell me that electoralism won’t bring about socialism and things have to get way worse before the people revolt.
Accelerationism is imo the left wing equivalent of the american conservative-christian death cult.
Yeah accelerationism is bad mmmkay
Yes that is my opinion what are you implying?
I was agreeing
Cool cool. The ‘mmmkay’ threw me off ✌️
It’s from a quote by Mr. Mackey on South Park.
Prove this wrong then. It’s never happened.
Why do you think this meme is applicable here? Calfpupa never said socialism never works, she said you can’t vote your way to it. If your point is that you’re happy with the neo-colonialism of northern Europe, yeah we know the liberal position.
Norway voted themselves into socialist policies. Then leftists say it’s not Socialism. But when you say it’s bad in a different argument, they are held up as an example of Socialism. If the voting continues as it has in the past it could become full socialism.
The arguments that are in favor of social democracies are those around the effectiveness of social welfare programs and how effective compassion is as a political root, but that doesn’t make them fractionally socialist and they aren’t held up as socialist countries. I feel like a lot of this follows from a view of “socialism is when the government does stuff”, which I doubt was the definition Calfpupa was using.
What voting trends have you seen that suggest a move towards democratization of the economy over privatization that would be in line with complete democratic control? Further what trends have you seen in freeing neo-colonies from debt trappings and foreign ownership?
I mean, it’s true.
Doomer bullshit.
Things get better by making them better not making them worse with no plan to make it better again.
Leftists go like this
Step 1: Bring down the government
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Socialism!
We’ve laid out the plan multiple times. Doomed is thinking this is as good as it gets.
I missed it multiple times, apparently. What’s the plan. And, I’m not being facetious, I’m genuinely curious.
https://kbin.earth/m/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world/t/3350832/-/comment/15325938
You have no plan.
I just laid it out for you. This smacks of privilege. “I got mine, FU!”
You haven’t laid out a plan though because you don’t have one.
That’s true.