- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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I’ll say what I just said on a similar thread: if the internet goes down tomorrow, mesh will mean very little compared to ham radio.
Any quality transceiver built in the last 100 years will be more useful. It is purely about how many exist, how long they last, and their requirements for use (which are effectively, power and antenna).
Yes, there is a license that you need in non-emergency situations. It doesn’t change much anything in emergency situations, and it certainly doesn’t affect the fact that there are already millions of radios out there.
I certainly wouldn’t throw away a mesh if the world was ending – I’d set it on the desk while finding contacts on HF (=world band) using a ham radio. My chances of contact there are at least an order of magnitude better.
I’ve come to the realization that mesh nodes are little more than a gateway drug into the world of ham radio. And for that I’m grateful.
It’s not as good, and does everything worse than radio. The only real world use I have found is for when cellphone networks get overwhelmed at things like music festivals and large sports games. No one else’s texts go through, but I can toss by buds a node to put in their back pocket and we can stay in touch.
our local mature club is building our local mesh network out now as an introduction to the ham world. And it’s working. It’s getting the younger kids and adults through the door. And from there, it’s an easy thing to get them interested in more useful and fun forms of communication.
Now that I like. And I think there is room for both – IF people know and understand the differences.
Mesh against ham in an emergency is not even a competition, in my view. The numbers just aren’t there. But for random cellular failures etc, I see some utility.
Personally, I’ve just seen so much more about mesh lately than ham, and it makes me sad. If it’s a gateway, as you suggest, then great. I worry that people see it as a novelty and not a gateway.
Oh it’s a hundred percent just the novelty communication technology that is in vogue right now. I don’t really know if it’s a true zeitgeist technology or if someone with a lot of product to sell who is playing with the social media algorithm. But I guess I don’t really care much.
The trick is to find a way to seize on that opportunity. Now that our mesh network is structurally sound and sufficient, I’m working on using a raspberry pi to automate our ham club meeting dates, testing dates, and field days, and then blast those messages once a week or so over the mesh network. That way, an impulse buy turns into the discovery of a fuctional network and afterwards, a random person can discover a whole local community of people with all sorts of new things to learn.
You can lead a horse to water. But you can’t make him drink.
first you need a trough. That’s the mesh network. After, the horse needs to be thirsty. That’s the curiosity people have. information, the when and how and where, you can automate and passively tell them about. that’s the water.
Good on you for using one to bolster the other! Smart use of the tech either way.
I’m really hoping this takes off.
What timezone, OP?
Jitsi link: https://meet.jit.si/whatiftheinternetgoesdown
CET
deleted by creator
Every year I see more on the map. Have a solar node, good fun.
Ever useful? I doubt it, HAM would dominate in a collapse.
In a true emergency? Yes, HAM is the way to go and I need to get around to buying one of those super sketchy Baofengs. In theory you can configure them to use without a license (which is also on the todo list) but it is super easy to tick into the licensed use. How much people will care will mostly depend on whether your local HAM folk are narcs. But, regardless, all bets are off in a true emergency and Baofengs are dirt cheap.
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
And anyone thinking of using any of that for stuff the government don’t want you to: You are an idiot and you need to learn about how insecure all of those are.
Licensing means nothing in an emergency situation. I never understand why it is even mentioned in these arguments. In fact, even if the world isn’t ending, you can ALWAYS use a ham radio in an emergency with or without a license (defined by the FCC as immediate dangers to life or property).
More importantly, there are at least an order of magnitude more ham radios out there than mesh devices. It isn’t even close. If the world ends, find a ham radio. Ideally you will know what to do with it when the time comes.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
Maybe you’d understand more things if you continued to read after the first opportunity you see to spew whatever you want to?
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
Disagree. Ham is better here, for the reasons I already mentioned.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
You don’t risk a fine if you get the license first. The test is not difficult and costs something like $10.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
I put in the appropriate amount of energy for the quality of the comment (and the rudeness of the response – be better).
Got it. Nobody should consider the need for a license because, in an emergency, you don’t need one. But also get a license so that you can use it in non-emergencies otherwise you’ll get a fine.
Good talk.
Keep in mind that without working repeaters, the baofeng will only have a range of a few miles on level ground with nothing in the way. If the power goes out, most of the repeaters will go down too. Some have battery backups that may last a few hours to a few days. Depending on where you are, a few may be solar powered, but heavy use will drain the batteries. Some repeaters are also reliant on the internet for linking to increase the coverage area.
What you really want in that case is a portable HF radio and a wire antenna you can string up over a tree branch or a support with a fishing pole. In the daytime, you can use the upper HF bands for long distance communication. That has a range of thousands of miles, but nearby stations won’t be able to hear you if they are beyond line of sight. Since the portable radio doesn’t have much power, you may need to use digital modes to get through. For more local contacts you can use NVIS propagation on the lower HF bands. That has a range of several hundred miles and can even be used to talk to someone on the other side of a mountain. Even 5 watts and an antenna strung 3 feet off the ground can work for voice contacts out to over a hundred miles.
Yeah… if I am trying to reach people tens of miles away during The Apocalypse, I am already dead.
Anyone who is within range to be helpful (or… not) would generally be within signal range of a handheld.
HF handhelds do exist. Do they have the range of a dedicated HF rig? No. Better than a Baofeng? Yes, and they’re about $10 more.
What about after surviving the initial disaster? During the rebuilding? Or the ongoing survival?
Long-distance radios are useful as hell in stuff like The Last of Us.
If you are in a situation where you need help, the odds of someone (even the person you have been talking to for weeks on the radio) doing a day or two journey to MAYBE be able to reach you is pretty slim. And such long distance communication has other implications for bad actors.
And in the event of “rebuilding” some kind of community, you aren’t going to be using a handheld device at all. You’ll raid… I don’t even know what at this point (I miss Radio Shack) to install a radio on the tallest building you can find. Oh, a HAM Radio Nerd’s house. That’ll work.
Whereas if you are trying to communicat4e with others and signal for rescue? Whatever you can get from walking up a hill/mountain or climbing the stairs to said tall building with your handheld is probably about what you can expect.
Same with in stuff like hurricanes and the like. If you are in a region that is at all hospitable then the relief teams know to send helicopters/people to that area. And if you are in the kind of situation where even a few hours might mean the difference between life and death… odds are nobody is coming.
The four repeaters in my area are run by one club. They do the Field Day exercise every year and from what I remember they run them around 150w per repeater. A small jenny could run those fuckers on 15gal a day fairly easily. In a huge emergency, though, you can relay morse on just 5w through 5 or less relaying techs to most of the world without repeaters at all. (1 if you’re lucky, but I’m being fair to real life interference).
You legally need a license for HAM in the US, but there’s nothing really preventing anyone from configuring a radio to licensed frequencies. As for HAMs reporting you, if it’s an emergency the FCC rarely fines anyone if it’s for medical or safety concerns, were any amateurs to even report you. The whole reason for the Tech license for example is just to know laws and rules for operation. It’s damn easy, too. License exam was $25 a few years back, 8 year term. All the questions and answers are avilable online, they just pull (35? I think) from the pool of 400. Most is pretty basic rules of common sense and civility, a few laws. Most tech questions are just converting frequencies and basic math. They don’t require morse anymore (Thank god, or I’d never pass). And if you pass the Tech, you can go right back in for free to try the next exam level. I never use mine, but I do have an HT I keep charged in case of emergencies.
I think many people are unaware that you don’t need Morse anymore tbh. This makes the license extremely easy to get, but the knowledge you can get from ham radio is off the charts.
FYI, it’s not HAM (not an acronym)-- just ham. Named because the people fucking around with radios were “hamming it up”, back in the day.
What about more extreme cases, say Castaway (movie) type situation. Stranded on an island in middle of nowhere.
But conveniently, one of the packaged has a functional 2m battery powered radio and a Yagi too. There’s no one you can make contact with, except… the ISS.
What if the ISS was the only station you could contact?
“Hello International Space Station, I am stranded on an island after a plane crash. Can you help?”One of the coolest things in my opinion about radio is the ability to skip off the upper atmosphere and bounce a signal back down halfway across the globe. You can also bounce a signal off the moon.
You just can’t legally transmit without a license. You can own a ham radio and listen all you want.
Perhaps where you live.
Internet 101: Laws aren’t the same everywhere.
Out of curiosity: where do you live where listening on ham requires a license?
In the US and other countries I am aware of, listening is allowed without a license (how would one even enforce such a thing?). In fact, you can even transmit on a ham radio in the US without a license provided there is an immediate risk to life or property.
yes they are
Early evening in the western hemisphere, OP posted a large sum of perfectly native fluency English, so yeah, I’ll assume US or Canada. Can’t have a conversation without making reasonable assumptions. But please, feel free to add to the conversation, where do some of these exceptions exist? Don’t just “um, actually” the conversation, add to it!
No wonder they’re insecure with you calling them idiots all the time.
🫣
I’ve been thinking about ordering some but I’m getting some analysis paralysis just looking through the options, any recommendations on a cheap unit I can hand out to some friends, I dunno if I truly need solar, but I guess it’s not a bad option
They sell 2 helteks so you can play around with them for about 50$. Used to be around 30. I have a couple, they do decently well.
HAM will work best for long distance communication but does not have enough capacity to support local short messaging for any major population sizes. Mesh networks scale in bandwidth and will not be overwhelmed as easily if tens of thousands of people suddenly hop on it at the same time.
I think that Starlink covers a lot of disaster scenarios.
Assuming Elon isn’t part of it or doesn’t restrict usage
Free Starlink during disasters for everyone, but for
surveilencechild protection and anti-terrorism you must accept X as a Certificate Authority.Starlink and the number of satellites we’ve got up there could absolutely cause a chain reaction if a few too many were destroyed.
Haha I didn’t mean that kind of disaster. But yes star link has the potential to wipe out a lot of LEO until the debris orbits all decay
I guess here the topic is more of insurrections, like what’s happening in Iran right now or how it went on in HK
How fast could a group of 5 people that want to remove all nodes in the area need to do so? Are they all listed on a map with their location?
Mine is on a map, but in a radius of around 10 miles. Close enough to let people know I’m here, but not accurate enough to easily track me down.
That said, if someone wanted to hunt me down, they certainly could triangulate me pretty quickly.
Yeah all they would need is a small RTLSDR and they make them directional for police and such. Its how they get people interfering with police/fire/etc…etc… on different channels. At 1W or lower its going to be a bit hard to find, but anyone determined would be able to triangulate pretty quick.
Yep its a fun hobby though!
I never could really get ahold of anyone to talk to, most Elmers in my area died. So I just use the license as an emergency line. Talked a few times on my HT, but most HAMs in my area use their cell phones nowadays.
how do i make it go?
Check out the Quickstart: https://rootaccess.org/wiki/Meshtastic/
There are others but this is from a local makerspace and I have personally done this setup. It works well, as long as there is a node in a high place.
Honestly though its a hobby not something that can be relied on unless your whole community gets together. Hope you have fun!
thanks amigo
Is it meshtastic? I’m pleasantly surprised by how much it’s grown around me in just a year
It’s cool yes. But my wonder is if it will be on anyone’s mind when things go south.
In a lawless world, could you trust anyone that said hello back?
I think the point is to keep in contact with friends and family. Maybe it would be used to blast news or alerts in a time of war idk yet, I just ordered some radios a few days ago and I am waiting to get started with it.
Yeah I’m thinking for flooding and generalized chaos but not a direct emergency.
No idea about an appocalypse situation, I don’t have solar so all my gadgets are going down anyway. And not that many solar nodes around me
I’m just here to cheer on a Jitsi link in the wild.
Go Jitsi!
Check out !meshtastic@mander.xyz
The meshtastic website has a getting started guide that assumes you already have equipment first…which is odd. Is there a reason to go with Bluetooth only? Does it make more sense to get a Bluetooth and WiFi device?
Bluetooth first generally because you use a companion app on your phone to interface with the device and the BLE chip (nrf25840) sips power compared to the esp based wifi chips, that you will likely be supplying with a battery of some sort.
Other timezones
Can someone record? Ill be busy during that time…
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I just saw a node pop up from my local disaster relief network. I’m not sure if it’s legit…
Answer: Build another Internet
People who actually have to work and get the bread of the day are not spending money on that. IMHO. Sorry if I sound rude but honestly unless you want to experiment with something that hardly will have any real impact in real life you are just wasting money.
To use these kind of devices you need at least two people using it.
Anyway I guess people spend their money on whatever they want.
Weird, I work and get bread and I’ve got one, and my family members all have one. And most forms of communication need at least two people last I checked.
Is it our primary form of communication? No. But if cell towers go down we’re all within range of sending a text. If I lived in a city I’d definitely have one. It’s a stupid cheap insurance policy. But by all means, depend fully on your cell provider for communication.
Here’s something fun for you: Look up Kessler syndrome. If we were to lose control of our satellite networks for 24 hours, there’s a 30% chance it causes a chain reaction to where we lose the ability to even launch satellites without first cleaning up all the space debris. That time window shrinks with each new launch.
You don’t sound rude, you just sound too defeated to be able to think
They do have a point sadly. I absolutely cant convince any of my friends to get the fuck off of fb messenger and x and Instagram, even though its SO EASY to do so and find better alternatives. They sure as shit would never ever buy something like this.
I do kind of want one. But in my smaller city there’s no way id find another person with one.
Meshtatic radios are very cheap, about $20. It’s one of their main drivers of their popularity.
To use these kind of devices you need at least two people using it.
🤣🤣🤣 A communications device that requires a receiver and a sender??? Oh, how useless!
There’s over 300 meshtastic radios in my area.
My point is, you need two devices and ALSO the knowledge to set up these devices, it was implicit in the comment, some “normal” people even need support to setup WhatsApp do you really think they will use that kind of stuff? $20 is not a lot of money but there are people who can’t afford it anyway. Unless you live in an overpopulated area it will be pretty hard to find someone else using that kind of device, it’s just another hobby like VHF/UHF and CB.
Meshtastic it’s just coping it don’t have a real application and supposing someone make a business and start deploying the system for money the kind of people who are into it will say “greedy fuckers”
Got a link? Also, do we need to dial in to a specific frequency?
There are already users of these though? Meshtastic has plenty of nodes in the US afaik and is perfectly useable. It uses long range radios for communication so you only need a few people in a state to do it for it to work.
TIL: Incels have their own Lemmy instance. Good for you!
Ah looked up the instance and while I didn’t find it I learned it’s not named after “magic the gathering online”
Edit: maybe “magic the gathering online for women” would be a funny way to use the same acronym
Ah done weird conspiracy shit in their comments to
I have no clue what you believe this event is actually about and why people go there.
mgtowlemmy
Yes, listen to this guy - this is totally useless and you should only use
ciaapproved communications
Do you need an account to access the link?
