- cross-posted to:
- games@lemmy.world
- pcgaming@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- games@lemmy.world
- pcgaming@lemmy.ca
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I’m playing the devil’s advocate here because modders have been using other people’s assets with or without consents for almost as long as video gsme existed. Sometimes they make things of beauty like skyblivion and sometimes they turn the ugly snake lady of the last resident evil into shrek and sometimes they add big tiddies to every single NPC.
I agree with the previous comment: the modding community never gave a flying fuck about the creative design of games. Hell, often even devs of the game themselves don’t give a flying fuck when you see the “outfits” of some Korean MMORPG.
Do I think what Nvidia does is smart? Absolutely not. I think it’s hot garbage and I think Nvidia CEO will end up in prison when the bubble pops. But I think it makes little sense to jump on moral high horse to argue against what they are doing.
To me, the decision on how you want to play a game and how you want it to look is for the player to make and nobody else. You offer me a game, I buy it. It’s mine. If I want to play vanilla, I’ll do it. If I want naked big tiddies shrek instead of Mario, it’s my right. I bought this right.
I think the NVIDIA people just saw that it’s «more realistic» and that was good enough for them. And, to be fair, it is.
But they are so drunk on AI that they missed the inconsistencies, the fake imaginary lights, the impossibility of controlling the result, the random addition of makeup, the fact it fucks up color balance and contrast…
And the COST !? Two 5090s when most people couldn’t even afford one !? Even if the results were perfect, just forget about it ! No sane developer will spend any money on a feature less than 1% of their players will even experience, let alone enjoy.
I guess the big question is how customizable this will end up being - all the arguments against it seem to assume there’s just an on-off switch, and that seems pretty stupid as anything but a tech demo.
Please don’t lynch me. I’m asking because I don’t know. Could this be used to change the old games’ graphics? It could be a nice addition to modding communities. I would like to play Old Republic games with these graphics again.
Even if it could work that way, I don’t think it matters… They used a system with TWO 5090s in it, one to run the game normally, and the ENTIRE OTHER 5090 to run the dlss5 AI rendering bullshit over the top of it.
See that would be a cool use case. Games from around 08-15 that tried to do realistic graphics but couldn’t do it do to limitations could use a face lift and if this could be easily dropped into old titles as a filter it would be fine.
But I doubt it would be so because that’s a reasonable middle ground that still gives gamers choice in if they use it and devs wouldn’t be burdered.
“we interviewed only haters and they all of them complained about the thing they hate”
What a garbage article.
I thought Lemmy was supposed to be better than Reddit. Why is this on here
Reddit hive mind is just as much a thing here as it is there
I’m just gonna copy & paste my comment from another thread on the topic:
They don’t care. Nobody thinks this is a meaningful announcement, it’s just another pretense to justify AI as Nvidia and much of the entire US economy are so deeply sunken-cost invested in the “future AI ecosystem” that they just need any headlines to keep the machine churning. That’s what this is. Doesn’t mean it isn’t real and gamers won’t have to suffer with it, but no point of this is actually to make anyone’s gaming experience better in any way.
I don’t think it’s really aimed at gamers though. It’s a tech demo for what their hardware can do. They say that it was run on a dedicated 5090 which means that to get the same result, you have to be running the game on a 5090 and have a second 5090 just for DLSS5.
This isn’t meant for consumers. It’s aimed at sectors of the market that want realtime gen AI processing of realtime footage, whether 3D generated or live action.
I think they’re purposely taking the backlash from the gaming community, which they obviously don’t care about anymore, to showcase the tech to a different market.
They did announce it at a games event
Astute, I think you’re right.
So you think this is “Lost Pets” of the Dystopian Ring/Flock future?
I think it’s a fair comparison.
“Hey gamers, look what your GPU can do!” winking at the film/tv execs
It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals.
We’re talking about the crowd who shits on console players because they (usually) cannot install mods for their games. Gamers have been destroying the creative intent of the visuals in games for years with shader mods, changes to models and animations, and adding totally new, completely out of place things.
The DLSS5 examples look like shit, but let’s stop pretending we give a shit about the devs “creative intent” when talking about it.
So let’s have that philosophical discussion again like when we had with elden ring mods and artistic/designer intent.
So the biggest philosophical difference to me is that mods are done with a human artistic intent behind it and in the end it’s up to the individual gamer to seek out and decide if that’s something they want to include in their game. It’s the fact that some person, one individual decided that yup, I’m going to add big ol’ tit’s to Grace and throw her into thong and pasties while revisiting her mother’s death. At least that gal understood what the intent of the scene/game was but made that conscious decision of “nah, let me change it to what I personally would like to see because I’m just a thirsty bastard.”. And even with these types of mods, yes there is a level of respect and gratitude of the original developers inherit in modding.
It’s something unique based on this one person’s interpretation of the game that they’re sharing with other gamers. On the other end of the spectrum, we as individual games can play the game and then make the decision of if we want to incorporate that transformative artists decision or not and we can decide to completely respect the designers original intent or reject/alter it.
DLSS 5 there is no artistic intent behind it just corporation’s algorithm that’s not agreeing, understanding the tone behind things, saying and whole sale adjusting everything according to a model that normalizes everything to some average model. Plus while you can say that developers can have a say with tools to maximize or minimize the effects, which another article I posted seems to point out that those tools of control may be over blown, there’s been no inkling that the gamer themselves can decide if they want to use it or not. And let’s not be coy with some bullshit about “Well you can turn DLSS off”, no you really can’t because this shit has been used as a crutch for game development to get to a respectable frame rate for reasons so now both developers and gamers are forced to bring in a corporations non-artistic vision into their games.
To me that human artistic factor is one part of the key and the decision to say fuck it I want the game to look like a bad only fans filter and the ultimate choice of the human gamer themselves to decide to use it or not is the other part of it and why to me DLSS 5 is bullshit slop.
Replacing every NPC with a big boobies naked women is an artistic intent.
Human artistic intent and human choice to have every NPC with big boobies naked women and giant, and I mean giant, dongs naked men.
That’s the key.
So if I want to implement an AI tool that would automatically makes every game look like shit, this is also my human artistic intent.
If you want to us AI as the too to help you make dream a reality, there are plenty there for modeling and helping to make textures, that’s fine.
If you want generative AI to make you just make you model based on someone else’s art work, then to me as part of my values and morality, No. At that point you’ve lost any point of artistic intent when you’re letting AI, using other people’s design, other people’s artistic intent and style to make something for you. It’s not your art, your artistic intent you’re sharing at that point.
Also, even if you did do that, I as a gamer would still have the option to never use your AI slop of a mod, which is the other part of my argument on why mods are different from DLSS 5.
Why? This is exactly the same creative intent, I just used a tool you do not like to achieve a similar result. You using someone assets to replace Skyrim NPCs with Shrek or me using genAI to do the same is quite literally the same “artistic intent”.
Again, the key distinction to me is that a human had the idea and created it not fucking AI, not a mishmash other artists styles and ideas, it’s a unique individual’s idea and style that is ultimately produced.
If you use AI as the main creator then you’ve lost control of artistic vision because it’s not yours anymore. There’s a fine line between using a tool to help you get to something and stealing another person’s idea.
So let’s go with your Shrek analogy. At some point a human created Shrek as a unique idea and made it come to life. Now you want to use Shrek as in mod as a NPC, at that point my view is you’ve got no actual creative artistic intent there, you’re just using another humans idea but at some point at least it was a humans unique idea and if you had no idea how to make that into a 3d model to incorporate into your game then AI tools could help you make a Shrek model. I won’t call it AI slop completely but I’d definitely call it uninspired garbage and a complete theft of another persons idea without adding anything of substance but at least I could understand that you liked Shrek and wanted Shrek in your game, original game designer be damned I want Shrek all the time. And again, with mods, I’m free to never, ever install your mod.
To me human intent and choice is the biggest difference even with your analogy you would at least you would understand what the artists intent for the game was and made the conscious decision that Shrek would be better suited in the game and not generative AI going in and simply replacing everyone’s face with Shrek because a model stated Shrek’s face was what the model’s if/else statements averaged out between a whole set of pictures faces.
This seems completely irrelevant to my point. The problem isn’t that it’s against the developer’s artistic intentions, it’s that it looks like shit.
Who cares what the artist intended?
Irrelevant to your point? Damn, so you don’t even understand your own argument then.
Your first line is literally this:
It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals
and then you’re the one who starts equating mods and how they’ve been altering “creative intent” and implying DLSS 5’s generative AI is no different.
The whole argument about this tech is ALL about creative intent when DLSS is not understanding the game and forcing an algorithmic take on the creative intent not just about how bad it looks.
Fuck man, get your shit in order with a coherent stance and argument.
Oh so you’re just a troll.
No I’m a human that can at least understand my own argument.
Clearly not bud.
You are basing your entire argument (pointed at nothing I ever said) to a bunch of speculative statements about a stage presentation of a beta of a product that won’t be released for at least 6 months. Somehow you have managed to ignore the fact that not only are current GPU supplies limited, but many users have graphics cards that can’t even utilize the entire suite of DLSS4 features, but you then state that it won’t be possible to disable DLSS? Your entire bandwagoning stance is entirely based on shit you made up.
On top of that, nowhere have I claimed that an AI filter and mod changes are the same. Simply that they have a similar end result, of which we agree changes the original artists intent. Somehow you the think that the modder/mod installer has their own artistic intent that somehow matters but also that it’s different from someone toggling a feature on or off that results in visual changes. What if the user wants this effect? What if this effect was implemented as a mod? Your entire argument is flawed and it’s pointed against a stance I’m not even taking.
Furthermore, instead of making any sort of actual argument why I should care at all, you went straight to a personal attack. So no, you’re no a human, you’re an idiot.
Dude, you’re the one that brought up that gamers don’t care about the developers artistic intent and then brought in modding as the example of that and implying DLSS is no different just that it looks bad.
I present the counter argument that modding is respecting artistic intent and creates mode that modifies things because they actually respect the game, respect what the developers wanted but wanted to substitute and add their own artistic style and desires via mods.
Honestly at this point I have no fucking clue what your augment it because it’s all over the damn place when the article is referencing that developers are concerned that DLSS is overriding their artistry without understanding their intent and now your talking about GPU shortages which has no fucking bearing on anything being discussed.
And do you even understand what a personal attack is? Pointing out that you made a literal argument about artistic intention and then gaslighting to say you didn’t argue about artistic intention isn’t a personal attack. You calling me an idiot is and is a big ol’ ad-hominem attack, and the refuge of a person not actually serious about having a conversation.
But you are right, I am an idiot. I’m an idiot for thinking you actually had anything coherent or worthwhile to say.
Maybe gamers aren’t a monolith and the ones adding waifus to Skyrim aren’t the same as the ones criticising DLSS5?
Hmm. Nah that couldn’t be it.
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
Many of those devs got their starts in the modding scene and understand remix culture. What Nvidia is doing is not that. What Nvidia is doing is tantamount to including Autotune in every music player.
I don’t think the second part of your first statement is correct. There are plenty of games that have modding support and that’s great, but there’s also plenty of types of mods that exist despite a lack of support.
Reshade works with most games, even some with anticheats, for example. To piggyback off your analogy, that’s like using an equalizer to accentuate the bass because that’s what you like the most in music.
Regardless, throwing an Ai filter on top of your game seems like something a modder would come up with (and has), but not in any serious capacity.
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
An equalizer is a preferred option because everyone doesn’t have the same audio setup. Different speakers and different room setups will effect the audio. An equalizer is equivalent to the calibration settings in your display setting.
Weird, pedantic emphasis alert.
People have different tastes, and an equalizer is supplemental to both their tastes and individual audio setups. So would visually modifying a game to meet your own taste. Some people just like extra vibrance.
Based take and true. But there’s different «rules» for low stakes modding and an organisation like nvdidia pushing for default slopification of games
Bro opening up your sandwich to put mayo on is a vastly different experience than you opening up my sandwich to put whatever condiment you choose on my sandwich.
To be fair, if DLSS5 is optional (I hope so), they are asking you if you want the condiment.
The condiment is a shitty mayo, and they did take initative (which an average person will mindlessly accept), but they did ask.
Right now there no indication that DLSS 5 will give gamers the option to turn the Mutant Only Fans filter off and considering that DLSS really isn’t optional in today’s games to get a decent frame rate, it sure seems like their going to force that shit infused “aioli” into you.
I’ve been using AMD, so I didn’t know if you could pick DLSS version or something. But then again, I never paid attention to whether I could pick between FSR versions, so AMD could force whatever they want too I guess.
There are somethings on both Nvida and AMD side that you can do a bit of a driver override but it’s more like force DLSS on vs turn this particular feature on from what I can remember from their windows based applications or forcing fake frame generation on and off via override and I’m not going to mention or consider third party applications since that’s not official.
But considering that this new stuff is lumped under the DLSS moniker and not something separate like frame generation, I do have doubts that this can easily be just turned on and off even at the application driver override.
wait, that’s not artisanal fragrant brown mayo?
Load-bearing if there, but yeah that’s a good point, thank you.
Completely agree, it feels like taking crazy pills seeing the oddly misdirected anger.
Even then, I don’t understand the anger when nvidia isn’t forcing any game devs to use the tech, so isn’t it necessarily part of the creative intent if they decide to implement it as an option? At the very least they’re the ones that provide it or not.
It makes me feel like it’s an intentional campaign to stoke anger at something seriously inconsequential, but that seems crazy too.
I was going to argue that’s not the case, but then I looked at the most popular mods for Darkest Dungeon and it’s more than 50% anime girls with big tits. There are definitely some good mods in general that maintain creative intent, both aesthetic and game design wise, but it sometimes feels like searching for a needle in a haystack.
This type of tools should be added on a per-game basis.
Imagine AI hallucinating additional enemies on your screen when you are playing something like League of Legends.
As for games like skyrim - they might as well turn into wish-fulfilling AI-powered “go on adventure in fantasy land” machines and nobody would notice the difference.
Okay, this is still possible. Just don’t turn it on.
Preach.
It is the same argument they used to gatekeep souls games whenever someone suggested to add an easy mode for those who want to play the game but lack the skill to do so.
The intent of the developer is a lot less important than the experience of the player.
It is like a chef deciding how you are allowed to eat your steak.
No, it’s like ordering a steak at a restaurant and then somebody from the kitchen supply company coming it once it hits your table and sprinkling a bunch of cinnamon you didn’t ask for all over it.
More like if the option to have cinnamon is on the menu and everyone is pissed it exists for some reason.
Because the cost of having that option has somehow both made the steak more expensive and the equipment to cook it more scarce.
Oh I didn’t realize you were forced to buy a 5090 in order to not use dlss, til.
Also DLSS runs locally off the gpu lmao so its not really contributing to the ram inflation issue overall.
Nothing exists in a vacuum; those impacts are real even if indirect.
Its a tiny fraction of the problem, the issue is with datacenter buildout taking all the available supply, if it was dlss directly related we would have seen ram prices increasing much earlier then we did.
Someone: Hey nvidia, make this look better!
Nvidia: i got this bro!
What bothers me the most (besides the general AI slop thing) is that this shit changes the style of games. And imo better graphics alsmost never make a game better. I mean if the graphic is actually better…
My thoughts on this corpulent technology can be summed up by some brilliant thinkers.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius—and a lot of courage—to move in the opposite direction.” – E.F. Schumacher
“The cheapest, fastest, and most reliable components of a computer system are those that aren’t there.” – Gordon Bell
“Keep it simple. A simple solution has elegance. It is the result of an exacting effort to understand the real problem and is recognized by its compelling sense of rightness. I stress this point because it contradicts the conventional view that power increases with complexity. Simplicity provides confidence, reliability, compactness, and speed.” – Charles Moore
Corpulent means fat. Is the technology fat?
I think they’re not using it literally. In this context, corpulent just means bloated/gross. That is also its literal definition.
So I think the word works here.
I’ve never seen it used figuratively, and all the examples in the dictionary are literal, but maybe it’ll catch on.
I’ve never seen it used literally. Ever. Only ever figuratively.
That’s strange to me. Only two examples come to my mind and they’re both literal. Whatever examples you’ve seen of it being used figuratively didn’t make it to the dictionary.
I have only seen it used figuratively, why are you like this?
Like what?
I have never once read corpulent in my life describing the physical state of an individual, it has always been about over indulgence or bloated or overly baroque style. Not saying it has not been used in a way to describe a fat person but that I am not able to prove a negative.
Ok, but what am I like that you were asking about?
“Between dealing with minority oppression, general uncertainty, and the rush to replace artists and those who pursued knowledge with machines, it feels like there is no future for me or my craft.”
Jesus…
When a product’s most promosing feature is you can turn it off, you might have a problem.
It’s not like anyone can turn it on anyway, thing need two 5090 to even function, and they’re one of those buying all the ram which caused ram shortage, which mean no one can run it well. They’re essentially making a tools for no one.
This is a step towards forcing people to stream games from some dedicated server. Once this becomes accepted (and it will, given enough time), and turning it off actively hurts the player experience, Amazon or someone will come around and say “hey, we have a lot of 5090s just lying around 👉👈”, and people will start going for it.
I’m not okay with the doomerist take. Remember Amazon Luna and Google Stadia hit huge uptake failures and the latter completely died. Raytracing was vastly overhyped and ended up being turned off by most people, basically becoming a passing trend that rarely gets turned on for some niches.
GPU SKUs tend not to move around much. The ones used for cloud streaming are built for that purpose (if you ever played Geforce Now, then entered the video settings, it’s some obscure server card). So it’s doubtful they’d have anything “sitting around”.
Yeah, we currently have issue with server/client latency right now in games why the ever loving fuck would anyone think adding another link in that chain would be better or even usable.
I have the best internet I can get in my area, its fairly good and above the average but I still have plenty of issues since games are often hosted on the cheapest option often far far away. Hell I was visiting my friend and his son is a big fortnite kid and got to see them rage quit trying to play during update day due to very very bad lag. That is fortnite, the most accessible game I think is currently around.
The whole idea that these game streaming services are even viable more then 100kms from the streaming location is kinda flawed. We have shit infrastructure and if anything it is getting worse as games and telecoms are cutting corners more and more. This is kinda a silly way to try to sell unsellable hardware and unsellable AAA games in a market where more and more consumers don’t care as much about super photo realistic games and can not afford new hardware. 100% this push to serverside streaming of games is just a thing to sell investors on the idea that their business model is not doomed (it is doomed however).
Well, according Nvidia, they’re all wrong, so who are you going to believe?
I only trust little Asian men in black leather jackets
Well, think of it this way:
China now knows how to shoot down F35s, if you’ve been following other news.
Yeah, sorry Taiwan, between that and the US wasting all of its missiles and interceptors on Iran… and dismantling the SK THAAD system for parts, after two of them got destroyed in the GCC…
Huang is gonna be taking orders, moreso than giving them, in the near future.
@Deceptichum@quokk.au your bot is broken
What?
c/lostlemmings
Sir this is a Wendy’s
Sorry, what?!
A bunch of people got it wrong, and other people ban wagoned. The hate has almost disappeared now that the dust has settled and people actually listened to what it is, but there are so people that change to goal post to general AI is bad after finding out what dlss 5 actually does. Always look into the subject before joining the bandwagon because the first reaction is usually wrong and misinformed.
Thank you, Chad, nVidia intern.
WTF are you even talking about? Sit down Billy, I award you no points.
and may God have mercy on your soul.
Happy cake day brother !
Relax, that account must be an AI bot with DLSS ON™.
I mean even generative AI would put out a sentence that made better sense that that. That was just a mishmash of words that made no actual point and lead nowhere and it honestly it hurt my brain trying to understand it.
I mean moving goal posts? Just WTF? The goal post has always been DLSS 5 is horrible AI bullshit that tramples artistic intent and this guy had to have at least skimmed the article and saw that this is what these developers were saying.
Sorry, not to ramble but damn, this post just broke my brain since I was coming off of doing a logical task and couldn’t deal with something so illogical all of the sudden.
Guy must be a Sovereign Citizen, they make about as much sense.
Come over here and have a good laugh 😂 https://lemmy.world/post/44484483
10/10 he’s either some jerkoff CEO, some jerkoff tech bro, or some jerkoff shareholder.
Well damn.
Hmm… New account, defending a company that doesn’t care about your opinion, and saying that everyone but the corporation is the problem.
Bro… Are you aware that you are a bot?
No, usually the first reaction is the wrong one. This is the case here. So many people got what dlss5.0 does wrong. It’s just AI fear and assumptions, and not understanding what the tech is doing and what is for.
You are making that “first reaction is the wrong one” assertion like it is some sort of law of physics. Many people have read all the published materials and are knowledgeable in the field, and come to the sober, measured conclusion that this technology is mostly a turd. To make matters worse, its a $2500 turd that makes the room hot and the electric meter spin real fast.
Dlss 5.0 is not $2500 bucks.
Two 5090 cards are about $8000+.
$10,000 CAD at the moment. This is the cheapest one I could find in stock…
Nah, I still think it’s terrible even though I know what it does. The final product just looks like straight up garbage.
This isn’t the final product. It was a tech demo. It’s going to be worked on for the next few years after first release.
Hi Elon!
Then why fucking announce it in this state when you’re also running the damn thing on two 5090s, and supposedly in 6ish months the thing will release on a single card, and better?
Why not release it. It’s an early dev tool that isn’t required. Might as well get devs using it early that want to use it and try it out. Ray tracing was also released on cards that could barely use it when the 20 series came out, and people were complaining. Now RT is in almost every new game and gpu run it just fine.
No ray tracing is not super used, most turn it off for a smoother game. And in this case you are telling us that in what 6 months they will get dlss 5 working? Naw this is more or less the thing that will come to customers in September.
I’ve seen it in reverse; people who saw the initial yassification of characters were impressed by the “rendering” but after a few days, have realized that perhaps it isn’t the creative intent to make everyone look like AI slop.
Plus even if the tech ends up being good, the demonstration (and subsequent response) is very much not. Shadows getting washed out, people’s arms disappearing, and other things, people looking it over realize it’s not even doing what it wants to do.
Maybe it’ll work out when the creators have control over it and can prevent it from undoing important stuff, like a character’s plot related scars or lighting effects used to show players where to go, but that’s all suspect until proven otherwise.
Dlss 1.0 sucked.
Dlss 4.5 is amazing.
Dlss 4.5 also sucks, just fake frames for fake people.
Don’t forget the “at least we still have amd” mindset. If AMD picks this up (and the CEO’s are related ffs) then the only work needed by game devs will be these horrible munchkin models that AI will magically fix.
At that point it’s not only that we replace human artists anymore, it’s that any new players in the gaming GPU market will have catch up to DLSS to even be considered as a viable alternative.
Shut the fuck up. You are wrong and misinformed. Also, artificial general intelligence doesn’t exist yet, but when it does, you’ll feel the pain regardless of your naïveté
Hi Jensen!
What up G
There’s too many AI bot posters these days.
