All of my degree was in C, C++, C#, Java, etc. and the one class I had that did web applications did Java backends and middleware with PHP frontends. It wasn’t until I got into the industry that I had to learn Angular, Electron, React, Django, etc.
I don’t think it’s the devs making these decisions.
To add insult to injury, the demands are often really unclear. Changing something in an electron app is often pretty straight forward. Not so much in a C# or especially C++ app
It’s the minimum effort that translates to minimum time that translates to minimum cost for the business. Why hire another developer for a mobile app (or another platform) when you could just have the same web dev write it. Or without hiring another dev, why have the same dev need to build up tooling in another language when you can just reuse from the existing platform
Lol I mean I would never use windows 11 or defend that use of it. I’m just saying a valid use of electron is to target multiple platforms with minimal development hurdles.
Having built applications with Microsoft’s mfc, Java’s swing, the omnipresent Qt, and whatever nastiness Mac was using in the early 00’s, electron is worth the silliness. Trust me. Trust me.
So weird. I spent more than two years of my career working on a Qt app (not by choice) but I’ve never met another human being who has ever even heard of Qt. Nothing else has ever made me so certain that I’m clinically insane.
My favorite thing about Qt was the use of C++ for the back end and Javascript for the UI layer. It lets companies take advantage of the, uh, four people in the world who are good with both languages.
Ok, seems like a separate issue. The question was why do this and I gave an answer. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong because you can find a reason not to do it.
Why have a consistent Wayland experience when each application can run it’s own Electron version with varying degrees of enforced Wayland flags, and/or such an outdated Chromium version Wayland is just jank.
Edit:
Was trying to say that most of these CEF/Electron applications all need their own separate Wayland specific (Chromium) flags to have better Wayland support/integration. And the older Electron applications typically use an older Chromium as base, having even worse Wayland support… Was not trying to make this a “Wayland bad!” kind of post.
TL;DR: Electron applications have wildly varying level of Wayland support/integration, don’t have any Wayland issues other than specific CEF/Electron apps!
most (if not all) Wayland issues I currently have are related to Chromium, and especially CEF/Electron applications that are based on older Chromium versions. Weren’t trying to say that this is an inherent Wayland issue, considering most of the applications works as expected.
Ah I see. I understand now! I thought you may have been one of the people that is still saying X11 is superior, even though Wayland is very usable now.
Ive been hitting weird issues in Chrome too, and had to disable GPU compositing to fix them. Unfortunately I have to use Chrome at work - we’re not allowed to use other browsers, as only Chrome has the endpoint security functionality they require (provided by Chrome Enterprise Premium). No other browsers have or can provide the same features.
Always that reflex against Wayland - as someone who has switched to Linux not so long ago i have a hard time with the mindset long time Linux users have against Wayland. I understand that it might be annoying if someone is used to his X-Server and that some tools that people are used to for a decade will get left behind. But as a new user I do not have anything negative to say about Wayland. It behaves nicely with my multi-monitor setup and VRR, has no issues with my Nvidia graphics card, and Xwayland covers tools that can’t or won’t migrate. Using Pipewire allows Steam Remote Play. In the year or so since i switched to Linux, the stability has changed from “it’s ok, but annoys me sometimes” to “rock-solid”.
Y’all have to recognize that there is a new generation of Linux Users around, which does not have nostalgic feelings towards X, and for those Wayland is simply the normal way things run. Whining will not change that.
Just saying that certain CEF/Electron apps (especially those running on older Chromium version) are what is causing certain Wayland specific issues, hence my issue is on the application side (Steam, Spotify etc.), not on Wayland’s side… My bad for the badly worded post which made it seem like the classical “Wayland bad!” posts.
I haven’t touched X11/Xorg in years, nor am I planning on reverting back to it anytime.
I misread that, but it seems i am not the only one :-) We can agree on Electron being a lazy way of providing a program - I’ll excuse it if it’s a small game from a single dev, but everyone else should do it the right way.
Because why go for native performance when you can go for minimum effort on all platforms.
When all you have is
a hammerJavaScript, everything looks like anailweb page.Kids these days don’t bother learning languages that actually compile to native apps.
Let’s get you to bed grandma
All of my degree was in C, C++, C#, Java, etc. and the one class I had that did web applications did Java backends and middleware with PHP frontends. It wasn’t until I got into the industry that I had to learn Angular, Electron, React, Django, etc.
I don’t think it’s the devs making these decisions.
It is the devs. Management says they need it fast then the devs say “fuck you here’s your browser tab app”.
I deam of a dev job that would let me actually write a good app…
To add insult to injury, the demands are often really unclear. Changing something in an electron app is often pretty straight forward. Not so much in a C# or especially C++ app
It’s the minimum effort that translates to minimum time that translates to minimum cost for the business. Why hire another developer for a mobile app (or another platform) when you could just have the same web dev write it. Or without hiring another dev, why have the same dev need to build up tooling in another language when you can just reuse from the existing platform
Exactly, that and the “we are a [insert product name here] shop” mentality. The things I have had to fight for over the years are mind boggling.
Because you want a cross platform solution?
I get that electron can be slow, bloated, etc, but the amount of ire it draws is overboard.
Electron is broken in implementation
We need something like React native for desktop
Yeah, something better is welcome for sure.
Yes but sometimes, for example core parts of windows 11 like the start menu, don’t need to be cross platform and should be native, not a pwa
Especially since they had already native code in previous windows…
Lol I mean I would never use windows 11 or defend that use of it. I’m just saying a valid use of electron is to target multiple platforms with minimal development hurdles.
Having built applications with Microsoft’s mfc, Java’s swing, the omnipresent Qt, and whatever nastiness Mac was using in the early 00’s, electron is worth the silliness. Trust me. Trust me.
So weird. I spent more than two years of my career working on a Qt app (not by choice) but I’ve never met another human being who has ever even heard of Qt. Nothing else has ever made me so certain that I’m clinically insane.
My favorite thing about Qt was the use of C++ for the back end and Javascript for the UI layer. It lets companies take advantage of the, uh, four people in the world who are good with both languages.
Reminder to talk to your doctor about a colonoscopy
Because different OSes follow different Human Interaction Guidelines and I expect that applications follow the native look and feel.
following every linux de/wm’s interaction guidelines seems pretty hard
Ok, seems like a separate issue. The question was why do this and I gave an answer. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong because you can find a reason not to do it.
Why have a consistent Wayland experience when each application can run it’s own Electron version with varying degrees of enforced Wayland flags, and/or such an outdated Chromium version Wayland is just jank.
Edit:
Was trying to say that most of these CEF/Electron applications all need their own separate Wayland specific (Chromium) flags to have better Wayland support/integration. And the older Electron applications typically use an older Chromium as base, having even worse Wayland support… Was not trying to make this a “Wayland bad!” kind of post.
TL;DR: Electron applications have wildly varying level of Wayland support/integration, don’t have any Wayland issues other than specific CEF/Electron apps!
Electron should just be a wrapper for the local web browser.
I think that’s what Tauri is trying to do
Wayland isn’t the problem. Chrome just doesn’t behave well with it. I haven’t had any Wayland-related issues with Firefox.
Yeah, maybe it was just badly worded by me…
most (if not all) Wayland issues I currently have are related to Chromium, and especially CEF/Electron applications that are based on older Chromium versions. Weren’t trying to say that this is an inherent Wayland issue, considering most of the applications works as expected.
Ah I see. I understand now! I thought you may have been one of the people that is still saying X11 is superior, even though Wayland is very usable now.
Ive been hitting weird issues in Chrome too, and had to disable GPU compositing to fix them. Unfortunately I have to use Chrome at work - we’re not allowed to use other browsers, as only Chrome has the endpoint security functionality they require (provided by Chrome Enterprise Premium). No other browsers have or can provide the same features.
That might be the problem.
Oops. Fixed!
Always that reflex against Wayland - as someone who has switched to Linux not so long ago i have a hard time with the mindset long time Linux users have against Wayland. I understand that it might be annoying if someone is used to his X-Server and that some tools that people are used to for a decade will get left behind. But as a new user I do not have anything negative to say about Wayland. It behaves nicely with my multi-monitor setup and VRR, has no issues with my Nvidia graphics card, and Xwayland covers tools that can’t or won’t migrate. Using Pipewire allows Steam Remote Play. In the year or so since i switched to Linux, the stability has changed from “it’s ok, but annoys me sometimes” to “rock-solid”.
Y’all have to recognize that there is a new generation of Linux Users around, which does not have nostalgic feelings towards X, and for those Wayland is simply the normal way things run. Whining will not change that.
The Wayland debate is the same as the systemd debate of 2015 minus the death threats.
Very much pro-Wayland in my case.
Just saying that certain CEF/Electron apps (especially those running on older Chromium version) are what is causing certain Wayland specific issues, hence my issue is on the application side (Steam, Spotify etc.), not on Wayland’s side… My bad for the badly worded post which made it seem like the classical “Wayland bad!” posts.
I haven’t touched X11/Xorg in years, nor am I planning on reverting back to it anytime.
I misread that, but it seems i am not the only one :-) We can agree on Electron being a lazy way of providing a program - I’ll excuse it if it’s a small game from a single dev, but everyone else should do it the right way.
Overall a fair assessment! 🤝
I think you’re missing the point. What you said is a problem for sure, but that problem isn’t related to what we are talking about here.