- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
" CATL has thrown its hat into the ring with the Naxtra sodium-ion battery, with 175 Wh/kg and 10,000 lifetime cycles along with operation from -40°C to 70°C. CATL is planning a start-stop battery for trucks using the technology. It has the potential to replace lead-acid batteries. CATL has announced battery pricing at the cell level in volume at $19/kWh. "
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So, how long do you think 'til the GOP Congress enacts a law blocking said technology and company in order to protect Tesla and oil interests of the United States fascist oligarchy?
Tell me which stocks to buy.
Honey, where did you put my sodium ion battery?
On the kitchen counter so it can watch me cook dinner.
I’m dumb and don’t get it.
The thumbnail and article show a sodium ion battery pack just randomly on the kitchen counter while a lady is cooking dinner.
Kind of like those stupid Amazon pictures for wusjduejxxw power juicer Chinese knockoff version 4.2 showing it in a pool or some random place.
Thank you. I am not less dumb now but I understand what I dumbed.
Enlightened dumbness 🧘
“So, I don’t get why you people keep complaining. This is a green technology! Why are you so mad we’ve been evaporating the oceans at a speed to keep up with the demand for sodium? As if this is what has been causing all these new hurricanes and flood!”
- A trillionaire in 20 years or something.
The current timeline made me into a grumpy pessimist. I need to get out of that mindset.
Here’s the thing: sodium chloride aka table salt is extremely abundant. We are not expected to run out of it in any measurable timeframe, and the effect of sodium mining on the oceans or ecosystems at large is negligible.
Same cannot be said of lithium, which currently forms the backbone of battery tech. It is rare, and its extraction is extremely polluting. In fact, lithium is responsible for a huge chunk of renewable energy’s ecological footprint.
Switching to sodium technology is like switching from silver to sand. It’s just one thing we truly have enough of.
yeah I don’t really think what I’ve written above is coming. I just expect nothing less from that class than to turn a solution into a new problem. Should have been more explicit about that.
For anyone wondering what “10,000 lifetime cycles” means, it’s full charge / discharge to the point that the batteries are at 80% of original capacity so 10,000 is to me an absolutely incredible number.
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
10,000 lifetime cycles
so, 30 years if you charge/discharge it once daily?
Yes.
This also means that, when you buy a car with say a 500 km range, that the battery will last for 10,000 x 500 = 5 million kms. That is an absolutely insane number compared to cars that are on the road right now. And one you will obviously only reach if the rest of the car can keep up. EVs are already doing well compared to ICE cars in this regard, but this is almost an order of magnitude larger than the current status quo.
Also, considering that modern cars are considered totaled by basically any accident, it’s not going to be the limiting factor on the car’s lifetime. It’s mostly a talking point by ICE advocates who stealthily imply million km cars are typical.
Million km cars may not be typical, but it’s not an incredibly difficult number to reach with an ICE. But my issue here has always been the whole getting a bomb dropped on you issue of BEVs. The batteries have gotten better over time, but they can still fail fairly early sometimes and then it costs more to replace than the residual value of the vehicle. Whereas a poor person with skills can rebuild parts of an internal combustion engine for a reasonable amount of money because it’s possible to offset the labor into a time cost instead of money. Plus you can get a junkyard engine for cheap and go another 100k km or maybe way more if you’re lucky.
It’s a second, third or tenth owner problem which is why a lot of people overlook it.
Now the extra charge cycles of the sodium battery compared to lithium are already a significant step in making this a non-issue, but the true progress is in the fact that they’re cheaper, so out of warranty battery replacements might start making financial sense compared to parting out a car after only 10 years due to replacement costs.
This could be a true game changer for second hand EVs. Which means the people who buy brand new cars should also be more motivated to buy EVs because depreciation might become more reasonable. Right now the prices drop off a cliff as the battery warranty starts nearing its end.
Which is stupid, because current batteries already last way longer than most ICE cars. IMHO the depreciation is mostly because newer EV’s are still getting better at such a rapid pace, not because second-hand EV’s aren’t great cars (with a few notable exceptions, such as 1st gen Nissan Leafs, which didn’t have active battery cooling). I drive a 2016 EV and it’s still pretty much as it was when new, battery included.
It’s not stupid. Being out five figures for a battery replacement is a real fear for a lot of people. Someone asked the dealership how much it would cost to get a battery replacement on an E-Tron and the answer was 70k USD once out of warranty. They cost 30k and less for the older ones and they’re still in warranty.
It’s unlikely to happen but if it does it makes your whole car a paperweight. This isn’t nearly as bad with ICEs where by the time catastrophic failure is even slightly likely, parts are so cheap you can get an engine for a few grand if not just a few hundred. Even a used battery for said E tron is 20 grand. My entire car cost me under 2k, less than some HYBRID batteries let alone BEV batteries.
This axe hanging above your head is what I’m hoping sodium batteries would solve. You don’t have to worry about “what if the battery starts deteriorating rapidly now that it’s out of warranty and I don’t have 30k to spend on it” if the battery costs 5k new and 1k used in good condition.
Batteries have outliers that don’t last long as well as those that last several times longer than projected. Same as ICEs. It’s just a very expensive lottery to win right now.
Technology Connections and Hank Green have been shouting this for a while, but that whole issue is way overblown. Some first gen EVs around 2010 had issues, but every major manufacturer since then has way exceeded expectations on battery lifetime thanks to advanced BMS and thermal controls. Car batteries don’t just rapidly degrade out of the blue, the tech has nothing in common with what’s in your phone. But public sentiment has not caught up because most people think Li-Ion = smartphone = dead after 2-5 years, so second hand EVs are way undervalued. Which is great for buyers.
It’s not like you can’t easily total a second-hand ICE by mechanical failure. Just ask anyone who own(ed) a puretech engine. If you went by manufacturer recommendations, the fucking thing might just eat your timing belt one day and grenade itself. And there’s no way a full engine swap on a 5-10 year old economy car is economically viable.
There’s always something that could go wrong when you buy a car. Unless you get comprehensive insurance and warranty, you need to accept the fact that losing the entire car to an accident, catastrophic mechanical failure, or theft is always a risk. If that’s too much anxiety to deal with, get a lease.
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
This 80% thing is incredibly simplified and not even always accurate. Personally I charge to about 95% and my phone batteries remain at 98-100% condition after 2 years of everyday use.
Limiting yourself to 80% doesn’t really make sense. You’re losing 20% capacity instantly, instead of losing it slowly over a few years. To be fair, a lot of people treat their devices so poorly that they may hit the 80% in less than 12 months, so I guess there’s that.
Not to mention that your phone is already taking these things into consideration.
I keep my car charged to 80% to help with battery degradation, and here’s why:
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Most days, I don’t use more than 30% of my battery capacity (roughly 75 miles/120km). Even that’s high. I don’t care if that means I go from 100%->70% or 80%-50% when I’ll charge back up again overnight
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It’s not a permanent setting! If I do go on a longer trip, I’ll bring it back up to 100% and not sweat it!
From what I’ve heard, charging beyond 80% increases the degradation rate, meaning time spent at that level is an important part of the equation. If I keep my phone plugged in overnight and at my desk, I have a lot of time at full charge that I’m not really using, but if I know I’m flying that day or running errands all day I can pop it up to 100% and it will be a non-degraded 100%
I’ve had my S20 far longer than my car and never did limit its charge. It’s fine for me, but the battery is sure showing its age.
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Yeah, a friend of mine made a similar argument and I hear it. Personally I’m always right beside a fast charger so it’s not an issue for me.
My phone has an option to auto-stop charging at 80% so I use that. I will occasionally charge it to 100% but like maybe once a month. TBH if it had an option to stop at 90% I’d probably use that as a middle ground (my steam deck does and I use 90% with it). I got 5 years out of my last phone and I’m 3 years into the current one and hoping to get many more out of it.
edit:
Personally I charge to about 95% and my phone batteries remain at 98-100% condition after 2 years of everyday use.
That’s a good reference point, cheers. Do you not find it a pain to monitor that though?
I think that fast charging is almost as damaging as full cycles.
OnePlus claim it’s not and a quick search does back that up. For the one specific to my phone they move a chunk of the work off the device (reducing heat on the phone) and onto the charger. It’ll still charge normally with any USB charger but it gets much hotter and is much slower compared to the OnePlus “warp” charge.
Fair enough. I’m using an OP12 myself. I still don’t buy into the “fast charge ok” bit, but I also know it’s parallel cells and such. I still charge overnight using a 5w charger. :)
I don’t know if the same applies to sodium batteries, early indicators are that they are less sensitive to depth of discharge as a degradation driver.
Still, the expected lifetime is going to be at least between 4-8 times NCM (traditional li-ion), which is massive.
Now, if we can just get the robber barons and their wholely-owned politicians out of the way of progress…
Yep
Good luck to you
You’re going to need a guillotine
I’m in!
We taking your car or mine?
That depends on how far we are going and charging stations on the way
This is what I’ve been waiting for as residential battery solution. Really nice to see it starting to take off.
Would this be a good replacement for 12v lead acid car batteries as well?
The price 🤯👀
Especially for residential/static storage, where energy to weight ratio isn’t as important.
Yep
if i can afford one, i’ll buy a car with it. but if i can’t, i’ll keep using my 04 nissan.
If I recall well, it isn’t a good fit for cars as it energy density per weight isn’t as good. But for residential batteries, that’s huge (if true).
This isn’t true any more, and it’s mentioned in the article. Sodium is at least equivalent to - and on pace to surpass - the energy density of Lithium. It’s already being used in passenger cars in the Far East.
And me my '02 Mitsubishi wagon.
It’s unlikely you will see a car powered by those in near future if ever as they have relatively low density. But you’ll definitely see those as home battery and such where size/density doesn’t matter that much. And I bet it’s less inflammable as well.
Edit: ha, I stand corrected, there are cars powered by these but don’t expect huge range.
honestly, I’m fine with a lower range. when i go into the office , it’s 15 km away from my house. i can charge up at home, drive to work, come back and charge it up for the next day, so as a daily driver it might be fine. The problem comes when I want to go on a road trip, which is my preferred method of going medium to long distance. I avoid flying like the plague, and trains are really expensive for some reason.
In China NMC isn’t really used any more as a battery chemistry, almost all cars have LFP batteries. Sodium-ion has a slightly higher energy density than LFP. So basically almost all cars except the really expensive ones with a ridiculous range should switch over to sodium-ion pretty soon.
It’s still roughly half of the NMC. I wonder what’s the charging speed.
Per the edit, range will probably be fine. Na batts are already reaching the energy density of Li batts in EVs right now. It just takes a while for a new battery on an assembly line to get into actual car models. We’re not really waiting on any breakthroughs anymore.
