Obviously, a bit of clickbait. Sorry.
I just got to work and plugged my surface pro into my external monitor. It didn’t switch inputs immediately, and I thought “Linux would have done that”. But would it?
I find myself far more patient using Linux and De-googled Android than I do with windows or anything else. After all, Linux is mine. I care for it. Grow it like a garden.
And that’s a good thing; I get less frustrated with my tech, and I have something that is important to me outside its technical utility. Unlike windows, which I’m perpetually pissed at. (Very often with good reason)
But that aside, do we give Linux too much benefit of the doubt relative to the “things that just work”. Often they do “just work”, and well, with a broad feature set by default.
Most of us are willing to forgo that for the privacy and shear customizability of Linux, but do we assume too much of the tech we use and the tech we don’t?
Thoughts?
As an IT guy who has worked at a bunch of companies with exclusively Windows environments, Windows absolutely doesn’t “just work.”
I can’t begin to list all the random problems I have with Windows in my day-to-day job.
Driver problems, hardware compatibility problems, software crashes, OS freezes, random configuration resets, networking issues, performance issues, boot issues, etc etc etc…
New hardware causes problems, old hardware causes problems.
Almost everything is harder to troubleshoot on Windows than Linux.
I have several test servers set up at my current workplace, they are old decommissioned desktops that are 10+ years old. I use them for messing around with Docker, Ansible, Tailscale, and random internal company resources like Bookstack and OpenProject.
All run Linux, all are a head and shoulders more stable and functional than the majority of much newer and more powerful Windows machines at our company.
Debian, Mint, CatchyOS, they all are far more dependable than most of the Windows machines. They install fast, on any hardware I use, decade+ old Quadro cards and Intel CPUs, doesn’t matter, they all run nearly perfect. And the rare times I have an issue, it’s so much faster to figure out and fix in Linux.
I switched over one of the computers in our department to Linux Mint. Threw it on a random laptop I had laying around. I did it just as an experiment, told the guy who was working on it to let me know if he had any issues using it. I planned on only having it out there for a week or two… It’s been 4 months and he loves it.
He says it’s super fast and easy to use, he doesn’t have any problems with it. Uses Libre office for documents, Firefox for our cloud-based ERP system, Teams and Outlook as PWAs installed on Mint.
I use Ansible to push updates to it once a week, Timeshift in case something ever breaks. It’s great. About a month ago I told him I would probably need to take it back because technically, it wasn’t an official deployment and the experiment I was doing had long since passed. He put up such a fuss that I decided to just let it stay. I’ll probably clone the drive, put it on his old tower, and take the laptop back, and let him keep using it indefinitely.
Linux absolutely isn’t perfect, no technology is. But in my years of experience with both, Linux on the whole is far less finicky, and far easier to fix when it breaks.
The only thing holding me back from asking for an Ubuntu laptop at work is email certificates that we need to install on windows for outlook. Otherwise I’d love to be able to switch
They don’t even let us install wsl2, so annoying
Linux absolutely isn’t perfect, no technology is. But in my years of experience with both, Linux on the whole is far less finicky, and far easier to fix when it breaks.
I agree 110% but it’s also worth mentioning that windows isn’t as finicky as we complain about. If it was, companies wouldn’t by and large rely on it. People are delusional if they think Windows is only around because of some conspiracy or historical precedent. “It works” plain and simple. As you scale you’re going to run into issues regardless of the OS. It’s naive to think Linux is the be all that end all. As much as anyone I want to be Linux only. My home computers have been Linux for decades now. I’m a realist. There’s value and challenges with every OS. I hate the industry trend of Windows over Linux but I get it
It’s important to acknowledge that desktop Linux was much jankier even 5 years ago. I don’t think Windows 7 & Windows 10 would have been worse experiences on average than desktop Linux back in their heyday.
But times have changed pretty drastically. Desktop Linux has improved massively across the board. With so many applications going into the cloud and becoming web-based in recent years, Linux is more viable than ever.
Combine that with the fact that Windows 11 has become so bloated, so clunky, and just straight up unpleasant to use and maintain.
Historical precedent makes a big difference too. When an OS is dominant for so long, the ecosystem around it morphs to fit.
People are raised using Windows, go through school and college using Windows, get a job where their apps are all on Windows. Companies write software for their largest install base…which is Windows. And because the vast majority of companies and orgs use Windows, the IT ecosystem is based around managing Windows systems.
I worked at an MSP a few years back where almost every sysadmin there was far more experienced than me, I was the greenhorn. But when one of the sysadmins had their client’s Xen hypervisor go down, they called me because, “We heard you’re a Linux guy.” At that point, I had less than 3 years of Linux experience at all, and had almost zero actual Linux admin experience, I only used it personally and as a hobby. But I fixed their issue in less than an hour, got their client’s Xen hypervisor running which their entire ERP system ran on, all because I knew enough Linux basics to figure out what was going on.
Point is, people tend to become experts in what they use all the time. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Microsoft experts and admins are a dime-a-dozen where I live, but Linux/Unix admins, I rarely see a job posting that isn’t offering 20-40k more for people with those skills.
At my current company, roughly 50% of folks could be switched over to Linux without any issue. Their jobs all require basic document editing, email, Teams, and web browsing. All tasks that desktop Linux can handle now with zero issues.
I did something similar with 4 15 year old optiplexes for a student lab. IT wasn’t happy until the saw how well they ran
It’s pretty incredible how well it works. I installed Arch with Plasma 6 on a 2015 T450 thinkpad and it was so crazy how fast everything was.
Felt like a brand new machine, almost a decade old, and bottom of the line specs for that model, but it still ran cutting edge Linux like it was meant to.
My other desktops are even older, but it’s the same with Debian 12 and Plasma, they are super responsive and stable. It’s pretty wild to see a desktop that’s over 10 years old feel smoother and snappier than Windows 11 on a 3 year old, enterprise grade laptop.
At this point, Linux or even any given distro isn’t the problem. The problem is the software library.
I call it GIMP syndrome. There’s a lot of capable and powerful apps in the FOSS ecosystem and most of them have some kind of critical functionality gap or the UX of an Oregon Trail era disease. A lot of them, with the notable exception of GIMP, are actually working on it now.
I’ve used DOS, 3.11 to all the way to 11. Switched to Linux as main driver around 2009. Used MacOS at work for over a year now. I occasionally boot into windows for rare game that uses some anti cheat that doesn’t play well with wine.
I’m old enough that I just want things to work. I don’t care for any fanboyism. These are my opinions:
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Windows is a mess. It has different UI from different decades, depending on what and where. NT kernel is ancient. The registry is a horror show. The only edge it has, is third party software, like propriatery drivers. that’s it. And that’s isn’t a merit of windows, but rather market share.
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MacOS is inconsistent at every turn. It’s frustrating to use, and riddled with UX bugs, and seemingly deliberate lack of functionality. The core tooling, like the file manager, is absolute garbage. The only good thing it has going it, is that the Unix core is solid. In that year, I’ve experienced a soft brick once, that almost was a hard brick, and the reason was having set the display refresh rate from 120 to 60 Hz. Something I changed BTW, because certain animation transitions in MacOS took twice as long on 120 Hz… Yeah, top notch QA there Apple.
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Linux. It has its own flaws. For sure. But as for “just works”, it happens so often, that it’s exactly why Windows and MacOS feels so frustrating. I’d have my grandmother use Linux.
And, I’m not just saying this. When I upgraded components on windows, I spent 2 hours debugging problems. One of the problems was also that it reverted a GPU driver, where every single version information was unmistakably older. It also made it not work.
I’ve also experienced that the WiFi network adapter also doesn’t work until I download some proprietary software over ethernet cable.
On Linux? I didn’t need to do a single thing in either case. It for sure didn’t use to be this way. In 2009 I was hunting WiFi drivers for fedora over ethernet. But in the last, say 5 years, on Arch, it’s been amazing. Did I mention that I use arch?
Ps: The last 4 times I’ve had problems on Linux have been:
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- A Windows update fucks up grub.
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- Reboot from windows doesn’t release hardware claim on WiFi adapter, so it doesn’t work on Linux.
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- The system clock is wrong, which was easy to notice because of 2. leading to a lack of remote sync. This is due to Windows storing system time as local time, and not UTC. If you do software development, you’d know how dumb the former is.
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- Raid partition destroyed because a windows 7 install decided to, unprompted, write a boot partition on a disk with “unknown” file system.
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For me it’s I can make Linux do this when I see another system perform well, in contrast with they took my vertical taskbar in windows 11 and I have to gut the system to get it back
I do have to remind myself that I’m still used to living in a world where Linux enjoyed immunity to most “consumer” malware just because it wasn’t a popular desktop. Ultimately Linux is not more secure than any other system unless someone put in the work to make it that way.
IMO more people should be critical of the systems and tools that they use instead of shitting on the tools that others choose to use.
We do assume too much of our tools, but many people here are guilty of assuming that other OS’s are broken in ways that do not reflect the average customer experience.
This was a lot of what I was getting at. We artificially build our own walled garden. We’ll let anyone in just as much as we’ll throw turds over the fence. Your shit don’t stink if you throw it at someone else
Things don’t just work on any operating system.
With Windows, you have to hope there’s a solution that you can implement that doesn’t require rooting around in the insanely-outmoded registry and doesn’t require uninstalling some specific KB12345678 update.
With MacOS, you will do as Apple says, and you will like it. Otherwise, enjoy the $3000 doorstop. Granted, there is plenty you can tweak, but when there is a problem, and you find some Apple Communities post with a copy/paste official reply that has steps to take, none of which ever actually solve the problem, you will be treated with a cheeseburger on your way to the insane asylum. Full disclosure: a MacBook Air is my daily work driver.
With Linux, you are in charge — for better and for worse. This means that when there is a problem, while there is likely a solution, it will depend on many, many factors such as hardware configuration, kernel version, desktop environment, graphics card, display manager, etc. But, you can fix it with research and perseverance with no company getting in the way.
The main difference with Linux, is that you are given the freedom to deal with problems as you see fit.
So, yes, to me, Linux is as good as I think it is — not because it’s better or more stable (though subjectively I would say it is), but because it respects us by keeping the ownership and power where it belongs.
After all, Linux is mine. I care for it. Grow it like a garden.
We live in a world where the idea of community has been destroyed by rampant capitalism and the death of third spaces.
While there is indeed a lot to be said for something that “just works,” that “just works” demand is borne from a capitalist/consumer process that is literally in the process of going off the rails.
Why do we get so mad at Windows? Because it isn’t ours. Microsoft grows it like a weed on our property. Its roots begin sticking out new places all the time (“hey what’s that new bullshit on my taskbar?”) and has zero respect for your needs as opposed to its needs. Windows only cares for Microsoft’s needs, and it makes that readily evident in how you’re forced to use it.
Linux is the communal kibbutz, Windows is the corporate city.
In other words, Linux is better than we think it is.
Linux is the answer, it’s not about choice, the choice was eradicated years ago.
The community alone and fact in 2024 it still not just exists but thrives shows how much we need things like Linux which buck the trend
Love the image of wheeds just popping up all over your garden where you don’t want them.
It’s a great metaphor for the “HEY, TRY THIS NEW THING!” shit microsoft pulls.Linux is the communal kibbutz, Windows is the corporate city.
I was 100% with you until you decided to go and diss cities.
Cities are great and neighborhoods within them can have plenty of sense of community; it’s soulless car-dependant suburbs that are like Windows!
Tbh it’s more like Raccoon City than an actual city.
I think they dissed “corporate cities,” which I interpreted as related to company towns, like the so-called Foxconn City or iPhone City in China. Not cities in general.
Some suburbs are nice, too.
it’s soulless car-dependant suburbs that are like Windows!
Some suburbs are nice, too.
It’s precisely the streetcar suburbs that are nice, and they are nice precisely because they are not car-dependent.
Sort of like the difference between the cathedral and a bazaar?
No, because a kibbutz (planned intentional community) would be the “cathedral” in that analogy, and the city (incrementally developed community) would be the bazaar.
Thank you for this. It is brilliantly put.
I like to think of Windows as the Zelda sidekick of OSes.
Non-stop interrupting what you’re doing to tell you something you don’t need to know or care about, and constant “HEY LISTEN” nags for all sorts of shit that you either already figured out, knew about, or don’t give a shit about.
Don’t you dare talk about Navi like that!
Unix is definitely a less headache than Windows at this point.
Recent Linux convert here. Had some small background with it due to use at work (through WSL, unfortunately 😅). When Windows became too overbearing and intrusive for my own taste, decided to take a plunge and created a dual-boot setup with Bazzite (of course on my private machine). It was honestly refreshing to see stuff run with the same (or sometimes even better) performance.
This short anecdote now leads me to the conclusion; is it as good as we think it is?
Imo: hell fuckin’ yeah. It gets the job done and respects me as an end-user (with the trade-off of “some manual work might be required”).
Also, as a side-note: I live in the EU; I grew tired with an overbearing, salesman/rapist-like mentality of MS (and Windows, by extension) while reaping benefits of some modicum of privacy regulations. I cannot even begin to fathom how fucked the situation is where ppl don’t have these protections to rely on.
Linux is as good as Linux is, just as Windows is as good as Windows is and MacOS is as good as it is.
All operating systems have their place, purpose, and use cases, so the question is subjective. Different OS’s are good or bad for different people, and different scenario’s which is why they all have a part of the market share.
MacOS has ease of use and excellent intercompatibility with other Apple products, and Windows has boatloads of compatible software and compatibility with Microsoft’s Active Directory domains in businesses.
What Linux has is cost effectiveness and true ownership and control.
At the moment most people prefer ease of use for home computing, but on a long enough timeline Linux will obtain this as well, just look at what Valve did with SteamOS and the steam deck when it comes to that. Making it easy to use there is, I suspect, one of the major reasons the steam deck as a device is so well reviewed, and partly why we have seen such an increase in market share recently I suspect.
So right now, most people probably prefer another OS because of ease of use, but at some point in the future, Linux will probably be holding all the cards. It just seems that those who develop the distributions are often tied up with other goals apart from ease of use for the common user in the contemporary, but eventually they will begin to tackle this goal as well.
When I’ve thought about this is in the past I’ve concluded that my expectations of Linux are actually higher than Windows or Mac. It’s given me the expectation that if something doesn’t work the way I want it then it will be possible to make it do that, whereas with other operating systems I have been more inclined to just accept a limitation and move on.
E x a c t l y! On Windows/Mac, you’re less inclined to be charitable, because most of the time you’re facing down artificially-imposed limitations on how you can interact with your own machine. They seem to say “You’re too dumb to be allowed to mess with that,” which is a tolerable slight if it Just Works every time… But when it doesn’t, ohhh boy…
No, not really. I believe it is because a lot of us linux users have more understanding of our systems, so we know why a certain outcome happened vs “it just works tm”.
Also I would like to point out something that I have been telling people for years whenever a post like this comes up. Windows and Mac users do the same thing. They constantly overlook bugs, bad design, artificial limitations, and just the overall lack of care when it comes to various details that more community oriented projects cater to. The reason is because of familiarity. Just like many of us will often not see issues with new comers struggles because we have already worked around all of the issues. These users do the same.
At least on Linux you can have some kind of control while on Windows or Mac there is an illusion like “can’t do that, fuck you”, while Linux is like “can do that… will you manage”?
Which inherently makes it so that specific demographics of people will never be able to use it.
growing it like a garden is a perfect phrase imo
because on windows or Mac it may have just worked. …until it doesn’t, or leaves your windows scaled wrong or placed on monitors that don’t exist or some other failure condition. at which point you reboot and hope for the best.
when it doesn’t work on Linux I’d check logs, actual configuration, and even the source if I need to.and then I’d hopefully improve things and make it work the way I want it to.
Each time I go back on windows I realize it’s worse than I remembered, even though I never liked it. One thing I quickly realized after getting constantly asked for help about issues on windows : people tend to be greatly biased about how reliable it is, mostly because it’s all they’ve known for a long time.
People often talk about compatibility regarding Linux, but are somehow oblivious to all the devices and hardware made for windows that somehow fails miserably to work when it has no good reason to…while Linux, despite most hardware and software not being made with it in mind, can sometimes somehow work wonders.
Windows only «just works» because it’s made by a monopolistic monster of a company, with a ton of software and tools and stuff made for it because of how widespread it is, and despite that their OS is just plain garbage…
Just today, I was using windows on my laptop, playing a game made for windows, Black Ops. And it crashes every time I boot up the Call of the Dead. On linux, while it does stutter on that map depending on where i am, I can still play it surprisingly. Its very strange.
Just out of curiosity, aside from the good example posted below by @trslim@pawb.social, could you provide some examples of “devices and hardware made for windows that somehow fails miserably to work when it has no good reason to”? :)
Sure :
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My worst/best personal one : had a Huion Graphic Tablet that would just refuse to work on my windows 10 pc, either with the drivers given to me on a small disk, or with the ones on the site, had to contact the company for help (eventually they did)…thought it would be a nightmare on linux…couldn’t be more wrong, it worked straight freaking up, even had the luxury to install Huion drivers that actually worked…or just a bunch of non Huion stuff to calibrate the thing if I needed to…although none of it was necessary…like how ??
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More recently I got a Switch Pro Controller knockoff, thought I had to install some packages to make it work on Linux but no, worked out of the box wirelessly and plugged in, when I wanted to play with a friend who uses windows, had no choice but to plug it in with an awfully small cable (the only one my friend had at their house, didn’t bring mine), bluetooth refused to work whatever we tried…
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Some years back I helped a friend to buy a decent microphone (don’t remember the brand)…only to have them call me the next day because windows didn’t detect it…the mic was your usual usb plug and play thing…spent an hour on the phone playing customer support. When I went at their house later, I plugged it to Linux for the fun of it and it just worked…
On the more usual stuff there is the great classic of printers not working, that must be the thing people asked me for help the most, didn’t try Linux on most of them, but some (friends, family) I had to and never had an issue…and the comical thing is, for our printer at home I had to install some drivers through the AUR to make it work and even with that it’s just awful (making it work on windows is even worse but it works a little bit better). I also got called for webcam issues, keyboard issues, usb, drives… That’s the device part.
Regarding hardware, it will be hard to be specific because I helped a lot of people with pc stuff over the years, it something I do on my spare time. What I can say is, each time I am called for something big like a pc (mostly old laptops) not working/dead, or some drives dying, or refurbishing some antiquities or part of them, I always bring my Linux laptop and a bootable usb stick with a bunch of distros on it, because I know it’ll be more usefull than using windows. I remember the nightmare of trying to reinstall windows on some laptops (that had windows, that are still within what should be compatible)…to no avail. Trying to get files on a dying disk to no avail, etc, etc. The only time I ever truly needed windows for this kind of stuff was to unlock an Iphone using Itunes.
Tbh it’s just dead easy to give examples because with windows, manufacturers or whoever have to make their product work on the OS, and the drivers are not always up to date, so old they aren’t supported anymore, or can just be a pain to get or configure…while on Linux it can be a community effort, and a lot of stuff is already within the distro you installed so you often don’t have to do much. I am sure people can have the opposite experience though and I know some stuff just doesn’t work on Linux, but really my point is : a lot doesn’t necessarily work on windows either.
Not what you asked but on an OS level, I could also mention people encrypting their pc by accident with bitlocker, windows breaking stuff, update issues, partition issues, and so on… when you spend time on other people issues you really start to notice how much of a mess it can be, far more than people seem to think.
Wow, thanks for all the information! Very fascinating, I think. I enjoyed reading it! :)
Yeah I did not expect to dump so much text 乁(•ิ◡•ั)ㄏ
I did my best to shorten it and tried not being too vague but it’s hard with all the stuff I’ve tinkered with. Keyboard issues have been the weirdest and funniest experience I’ve had of them all I think, while printers are one of the worst.
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This one is more a case of «it didn’t work on windows for a reason but worked on Linux for no reason» : More than a decade ago, I got my first Graphic Tablet (yeah another one), it was from a dead brand, their drivers were still online but not supported anymore. But the tablet still worked out of the box on windows 8, only… windows wasn’t able to detect pressure so it looked like I was drawing with a mouse, Linux didn’t have such issue. At that same period my laptop (wich was the first that I owned) turned half dead after an update, wasn’t as tech savy as now but at the time all that I knew was that the disk had some issue that I could not fix…windows would not work on it anymore and that’s how I tried daily driving Linux for the second time, I lasted with this half dead pc under kubuntu until windows 10 came out (mostly because by then I got my first desktop and proton wasn’t a thing for games).
The Xbox 360 controller wireless adpater was a pretty big piece of shit 70% of the time.
That is a good example. Thanks.
Linux users are self-selected for increased tech savvy, so they’ll say, “Yes, it’s the best,” but really, the Linux community is still extremely forgiving of terrible user interface, and value things like FOSS over things like apps with robust, accessible feature sets. Linux users are happy to fix functionality holes with writing a shell script, and think nothing of it: it’s not a lack in the OS, it’s a testament to the power and flexibility of the OS!
I’ve used a few flavors of Linux, and their GUIs are almost uniformly terrible, only partially functional without using a terminal. For instance, they have various software and OS update apps located in semi-random menu locations, and none of them work as well as “sudo apt update / sudo apt upgrade / sudo apt full-upgrade / sudo apt autoremove”. And there’s a huge part of the Linux community that thinks this is great and not a problem at all.
Windows hides the ugly sausage-making from typical users, and forces IT folks and other developers to wrangle with it. Linux makes IT/dev lives easier while making typical users somewhat hamstrung if they’re scared of a CLI. So, if that has meaning for you with regards to the question “Is Linux as good as we think it is?” then you may have your answer.
Terrible GUI? Microsoft can’t even keep their print dialog consistent across their own programs, let alone dealing with different dialog boxes across third party software.
Yes.
I absolutely hated the feeling of helplessness when I found a problem somewhere, when using Windows.
On Linux, I am happy to give bug reports/ wishlist reports and follow through with them. Maybe even fix something, if I feel like I can. That (and the higher transparency in communication) makes me much more forgiving of problems I may find anywhere.My experience has been filing a bug on a FOSS app, and having it almost immediately closed because it was a dupe of a bug reported ten years prior which remained open and unfixed. I’m not a programmer, so it’s just, “Well, I guess I’m out of luck on this ever being fixed.”
I’ve done a fair bit of UI/UX work in my career, so I have a lot of sympathy for naive users, and FOSS devs mainly do not. If there’s some functionality that is only exposed with a command line parameter, well, that’s good enough. Read the man page.
sympathy for naive users, and FOSS devs mainly do not
From what I have seen, KDE devs that I interacted with, had a higher tolerance for mistakes, than I would want to have for myself.
I once submitted a wish for Kate, which was also submitted multiple times before and marked as Won’t Fix, because: a) low demand; b) nobody to do it.
But when I started trying to implement it, I as given more help than I should have asked for.So, it’s probably just about chance. Don’t let a few rejections stop you. If you consider it useful, even if it gets rejected now, someone will see it eventually. And some programmer might find it worth implementing.
