This got a report for xenophobia and, to my mind, it is xenophobic. It could totally be interpreted a different way where it’s inviting you to consider the cross-cultural nature of cuisine that gets boiled down into a single name, but it seems like most people, myself included (having seen how some other “Yes, but” comics go), don’t.
I think it’s worthwhile to leave this post up because the comments surrounding it are worthwhile and actually transform this into something insightful.
I have a different take on this.
long answer:
Japanese cuisine uses certain methods and ingredients, even specific ratios and recipes, some of which are passed down generationally either within a family or in apprenticeships or in education and training programs that give official certifications, or even just OJT.
The thing is that Japanese culture places a lot of value in excellence and attention to detail. Traditional Japanese cooking is comparable to traditional French cooking in that regard (and yes, I’m aware that not all japanese cuisine is high-class traditional fare, but even a basic dashi stock or a ramen broth are things that people take pride in and pass on their recipes, complete with regional variants and a lot of subtlety and nuance).
Anyway, I lived in japan for a few years in my twenties and I traveled around and tried a lot of different regional specialties and variants on some of the classics. I also frequented a lot of chains like Sukiya, Yoshinoya, and all the different konbinis. So my description isn’t limited to fancy kaiseki-ryori in centuries-old ryokan villages. Japanese food, even the basic stuff, has a certain quality to it, which is hard for gaijin to imitate unless they train for years with a Japanese chef.
I preface this with all that so you don’t assume I’m speaking from ignorance. Since returning to the US, I’ve been disappointed with the quality of “Japanese restaurants” here. I’ve been to a couple in New York that were good. I could tell the owners and staff were Japanese by the quality of the food alone. Overhearing them speaking Japanese to each other only confirmed it.
But there isn’t much of a Japanese diaspora in my area, and the “Japanese restaurants” around me are all run by Chinese families. I’ve stopped expecting Japanese-quality Japanese food from these. Sometimes I still go just to get my fix. But it’s not the same. The ingredients are different. The ratios are off. The love and care, passion, pride, and everything else that goes into Japanese food just isn’t there, and it shows up as different tastes, different textures, different aromas, etc.
Not to mention it’s just hard to find some things here. Famima chicken just isn’t a thing here. Even Karaage is hard to find. Oden might as well not exist. All the different kinds of yakitori (quail egg, cartilage, horumon, etc.), matsuri specialties like okonomiyaki and takoyaki, taiyaki, and so much else; the little shops outside the train stations and all the smells and tastes that go along with them; so many regional dishes like motsunabe, okinawa soba, etc.; and just so much else (donburi, ebi furai, chawanmushi, onigiri, korokke, katsu curry, soba/udon shops and all their interesting toppings.). Ugh, I’m drooling just thinking about it all. But I digress.
Obviously no one shop could do all of that, but “Japanese food” outside of Japan is typically very limited in options. Some sushi, mostly westernized variants. It’s rare to find many options for nigiri, or any at all but I’ve never seen a kaitenzushi in the US. Occasionally a ramen shop (if you’re lucky, but even then the broth just isn’t right, the chashu and shoyu tamago just aren’t right; and good luck finding moyashi namuru!). Other than that, you’re probably limited to a few things listed as appetizers. Maybe gyoza, edamame, and a couple other things that are considered popular in the west.
It’s just not the same though. It’s not just the selection, it’s the quality. The ingredients, the recipe, everything is just off.
tl,dr: Japanese cuisine has a certain quality, which is a deeply cultural phenomenon, but the “Japanese” restaurants near me are all run by Chinese families, and as someone who spent years in Japan I can tell the difference in the quality of the food.
I don’t see how it isn’t considered cultural appropriation. If a white guy tries opening a Japanese restaurant people will say it’s cultural appropriation (and probably call him a weeb). So how is it any different when a Chinese family opens a Japanese restaurant? I don’t see any way you can reconcile those two things without implying that Asian people are all the same, which is racist.
about the other nationalities:
I don’t know why the picture in the OP shows the Filipino, Korean, and Thai flags. The Korean and Thai places near me are all run by Chinese people too. And there might be a couple Filipino grocery stores but I don’t know of any Filipino restaurants in my area.
Korean, Thai, and Filipino food are all amazing, by the way. I’ve been to all three of those countries too. And just like with Japanese cuisine, each one has so much variety that just gets lost in the US. They substitute a lot of local ingredients which just aren’t the same, they don’t offer dishes that seems too strange to the western palette, they tweak a lot of dishes to make them more suitable to the average westerner, etc. I’ve never had a pad kra pao in the US that even came close to measuring up to how it is in Thailand.
For what it’s worth, Chinese food is good in its own way. I don’t have anything against the Chinese diaspora. I just don’t see how it isn’t cultural appropriation for Chinese families to run Japanese or Thai restaurants.
It depends on how much they care. If the chinese people running the restaurant are just half-assing japanese food and using japanese culture for the name and clout, its disrespectful. Effectively just trying to profit off the culture. Whereas if those chinese people are trying their best to understand and replicate the culture, it’s fine.
Hot take: a japanese person can “appropriate” their own culture. If they just take advantage of their name and ethnicity, without actually learning about the culture. This is just really rare in practice because people of any ethnicity are usually forced to learn about their own culture when growing up
One of the best sushi meals I ever had was in Japan, and prepared by a Chinese chef. If he opens a restaurant in the US, is that cultural appropriation? I don’t think so. I think it’s perfectly fine for anyone to learn and embody the culinary technique of another culture. Just don’t claim that sushi was invented in China.
I am Asian. There are Japanese restaurants in my city run by white people and I don’t consider it cultural appropriation. Cultural acceptability is a wide spectrum.
Interesting. Good to know, thank you.
If you don’t mind me asking, how much does your personal identity weigh being Asian compared to whichever specific nationality/ethnicity you are?
Sorry if that’s phrased weird. I mean like for example if you’re Korean, how much do you identify as “Korean” versus “Asian”? Or does it not matter to you?
I’m sure it’s different for everybody, and it might depend strongly on factors like generation and how frequently you use the language in daily life. But I like to ask people for their personal perspectives because it’s better than either assuming, or generalizing based on what sounds right. If that makes sense?
I know for instance people living in Asia are more likely to identify with their nationality or ethnic group, or the language they speak, rather than thinking of themselves as simply “Asian.” But among the diaspora, I’m curious to know how much it blends together into a multicultural “Asian” identity.
Cause I don’t want to be insensitive and say just “Asian” if that sounds overly reductive. But I also don’t know the polite way to ask someone what country their family is from…
Yep, cultural appropriation is a myth created by white women to put down other white women. I’ve never seen it in any other circumstance.
Damn, I really took it to heart several years ago when I started finding out almost everything I liked was considered cultural appropriation (I always thought it was cultural appreciation, and it’s not like I was profiting off of anything, but nope I was a white dude so apparently it was a problem if the pattern on my shirt looked a little to meso-american. I just liked the shirt).
Like, people were downright cruel about it. It really killed me on the inside, just day-by-day learning all these new things that I wasn’t supposed to like, even though I had liked them for a long time. I didn’t know what to like anymore. Music, clothes, food, etc.; just crushed me more a little each day because it was so cool to gang up on the white guy I guess.
But I wanted to do my best, be a good person, examine my biases and overcome my ignorance, etc., so if I argued with it much at first I didn’t for very long and after a while I started giving up a lot of things I previously enjoyed…
Yep. There are definitely some lines though, like I would be offended if I saw Americans tattooing a moko because they thought it was cool. It’s a sacred symbol and has meaning. But wearing generic clothes, cooking food, etc, using parts of every day culture, that’s just culture spreading because people appreciate it. That keeps culture alive.
Ripping on a white girl because she wore a Hindi styled dress achieves absolutely nothing. And I never see those people attacking Koreans for wearing suits or driving cars, which are very much European culture.
Good to see a mod comment not being a pile of human garbage. Served as a gentle reminder we’re not, in fact, on reddit.
me: sees reddit.com
me: lemmy can I have some reddit?
lemmy: we have reddit at home.
reddit at home: https://lemmy.world/c/reddit
Appreciate this very thoughtful mod response. It’s easy to get too wrapped up on yes/no answers when reality is far more fuzzy and complicated than that.
As an AAPI, I didn’t see anything more to this than a funny little nod to the people who actually prepare ethnic cuisines in countries not of their origin.
I saw it for the humor too. As a joke, at steakhouses - my southeast Asian wife used to demand “authentic” Texan bbq from REAL Texans. She’d say things like, “He looks like he’s from Wisconsin. I can tell.”
I clearly didn’t interpret this comic the same way as everyone else has, and if you think it would be better to delete it, I will.
I’ve seen this joke in many forms before, and it’s usually more like “it’s a little humorous when this happens” rather than some sort of xenophobic criticism. Like the cowboy themed restaurant in Fresh off the Boat or Bobby’s Japanese/German restaurant in King of the Hill:
I don’t think it’s better to delete it. I like to interpret it as the Bobby Hill Japanese fusion restaurant thing too even if I don’t think that’s what was intended by it. All the discussion here is really nice.
You are nice.
Been a long time since I’ve watched King of the Hill - is the second picture Bobby?
Yeah, they started up again recently after many years, and there was a time skip. Bobby is an adult now, and this is his restaurant.
I know of near me a Chinese restaurant run by Indians, and an Indian restaurant run by Vietnamese owners.
But the Vietnamese restaurant, that’s still run by Vietnamese owners.
They are all pretty good, but the Vietnamese restaurant is the best.
I initially viewed this as xenophobic, and was like “the comic author can’t be this stupid right?”
But actually maybe the message isn’t the typical “perceived good thing with hidden negative downside” that their comics typically have. Maybe this comic is just saying not to judge a restaurant’s staff by whatever ethnic food they make.
If i don’t hear mexican music blaring from any given kitchen, I walk
You know the Panda Express gonna be bussin when you walk in and the staff is 100% Mexican.
Who gives a shit. What food you get from there depends more on the locals’ existing culinary preferences, anyway.
Once was in a very white boomer town with a Chinese food place. It was like buttered rice and soy sauce and ketchup and chicken and peas. I couldn’t believe how popular they were or that they’d been in business for years.
deleted by creator
Even when an actual Japanese restaurant franchise opens a place here, they are usually run by local people. I don’t think that has much to do with how authentic the food is.
Like I don’t care if my baguette was technically made by a guy born in Clermont-Ferrand. Flour, salt, water, baker’s yeast. Nothing else. Do it right, and congratulations, that’s a baguette.
If I’m gonna buy an authentic baguette, the baker could at least have the decency to wear a beret and a twirly moustache, regardless of their ethnicity.
Exactly - recipes and techniques can be authentic no matter who gets trained to do them.
This would come across very differently if the restaurant sign said, “Yankee Diner” and the employees all looked asian.
happens all the time in Asia lol
Would it? To me it seems both are just observational humor of a common enough and mildly amusing occurrence.
IRL of course I don’t care who the cooks are as long as they can cook what’s on the menu, and at least some restaurant hiring managers seem to agree, so I think it’s not exactly rare for the cuisine and staff to mismatch. I say “think” because I don’t notice most of the time, so I don’t have a sense of frequency.
I think it’s the “yes, but” that makes it bad. Implying that the second image makes the first image worse. If it was just the two images side by side it could be interpreted as just an observation.
I am Turkish.
I go to Turkish restaurants.
Lots of Arabs working there.
Same food has become part of their culture too over last few centuries living side by side.
Some of our food is straight up borrowed from them, in fact.
Pretty sure one used to live/work in Turkey.
They cook it well.
I like it.I assume similar?
There was a slight empire situation there. You have no basis to complain about cultural appropriation as a Turk. But yes, many of the pilaf dishes in Asia have ottoman roots.
> huh, turks are not arabs?
> i suppose they be greeks then
>:3
Lol. Nobody at my favorite restaurant has a name that sounds much like a match for the official cuisine style. I think many staff are related to the owner. My guess is the owners just chose an implied ethnicity that they felt would attract more customers.
I guees I hope they feel safe to be more authentic someday. But until then, I’m just glad to enjoy their amazing cooking.
People from anywhere can cook authentic food from anywhere else as long as they know what they are doing, so this is bs
It reminded me of this asshole, who happened to be Italian, claiming that a professionally trained chef could not cook proper Italian food because he was Mexican
Even the concept of food being “authentic” or “inauthentic” is pretty dumb. Pretty much every food short of raw foraged ingredients is the result of cultural exchange.
You could argue that an Italian cooking with chilis or tomatoes is inauthentic and that the resulting food is more Mexican than it is Italian.
Extending the concept from ingredients to techniques, you could argue that every food that relies on the cold chain (refrigerated/frozen storage and transportation) is an American food because the cold chain was created by an American.
It is wild how much local cultural food is am invention of the past couple hundred years.
I have a family recipe that goes back hundreds of years, it doesnt look anything like people would consider a cultural food from western Europe and even then it uses tomatoes so it literally can’t be truly old.
Heck look at how the world makes pancakes. They are all the same just somehow mixed up based on loose info or available ingredients.
Cooking a nice meal is a modern invention. Before it was just food to not kill you.
its about expectations. I grew up in California and have some specific expectations about Mexican food. they are different than if I was raised in Jalisco. I went to a “Mexican” restaurant in Budapest and their interpretation of Mexican food is VERRY different.
Mexico, like the vast majority of countries, has wildly different food styles by region city so anyone who immigrated elsewhere will start with their local style and then adapt it. In the US there are a ton of Mexican restaurants that vary significantly. I find it interesting how Americanized Chinese food is actually very consistent between restaurants compared to Mexican food.
I am well aware of the regional differences in Mexican food (why I used Jalisco as an example).
shit, California was a part of mexico for a a few decades and we definitely have some local variants (CA Burrito is so good)
Modern Mission-style burritos, with rice and beans on the inside, were invented in California.
I remember watching a video somewhere that touched upon this. IIRC, whenever a Chinese immigrant came to a city in the United States with a large Chinese population, such as San Francisco, they would seek out people from their hometown and would often be directed to benevolent societies. These societies help provide means for the immigrant to start looking after themselves, by offering different professions folks can jump into. Often times that would include providing recipes for dishes they could fix up at restaurants.
I think the video was a documentary about General Tso’s chicken.
-editted for accuracy-
Okay I made a quick pop in to Wikipedia just to check, and I can tell you that General Tsao and General Tso were different people. Several different people in fact, some fictional and others real, but they don’t overlap.
It’s “General Tso’s Chicken” and has been a NYT Crossword clue, which got me started with “in case you ever need it for a crossword clue,” because I know accurate spelling is not really necessary here.
Much appreciated! Accuracy is important
Did you see there’s a national chain of Mexican restaurants that just shuttered their doors in the US after a failed expansion here? It was founded by two Australian men. I’m really curious what their interpretation is.
I went to a “Mexican” restaurant in Budapest and their interpretation of Mexican food is VERRY different.
Very different to what you experience in the USA? or very different to what you’d experience in Mexico?
Most Mexican food in the USA is TexMex which is inspired, but fairly different, from actual Mexican food… same with Chinese food
Tex-Mex is “actual” Mexican food, the cuisine formed from the Tejanos and is older than either Texas or Mexico. Mexico is a big place with lots of regional variation. Most Mexican food that Americans are familiar with is from or inspired by stuff near the border (which makes sense) with a mix from all over the country like mole, birria, and tequila.
Every good Greek restaurant I’ve ever been to had a kitchen full of Mexican cooks. Most of my favorite Chinese takeout places were run by Koreans. Folks cook food.
Many of the Greek-owned Italian restaurants and diners in my are being transferred to Albanians, but the language in the kitchens is invariably Spanish.
It’s less the who and more the branding. It’s funny that one has to have the right “look” to sell you the food of a nation, or customers will reject it. The sorts of comments you hear while working in a Chinese run Japanese restaurant in the US…
People from anywhere can cook authentic food from anywhere else as long as they know what they are doing, so this is bs
It is a bit surreal to suggest your nation of birth or genetic lineage somehow influences your capacity to slap a piece of fish on some rice.
Also… if you want to get really anal about the history of the dish, narezushi originated in modern day Cambodia/Thailand, and first documented in ancient China around the 4th century. Meanwhile, the more modern techniques for preparing and serving sushi did originate in Tokyo in the 19th century, but spread like wildfire. Sushi restaurants were popping up in Los Angeles as early as 1906.
It reminded me of this asshole, who happened to be Italian, claiming that a professionally trained chef could not cook proper Italian food because he was Mexican
A professionally trained chief should be able to faithfully reproduce a litany of dishes from around the world.
Of course, there’s a lot of regional variation and conditions. I might suggest that you cannot reliably produce a Genovese sauce outside of Genova, simply because you don’t have the locally raised veal, for instance. But that’s not a problem unique to chefs of a particular national origin.
I don’t know that you’d even want to serve truely authentic food since you want to appeal to local tastes. See: Chinese Food in the USA.
I love maki sushi, but I think uramaki sushi is pretty shit. It just so happens that uramaki sushi was invented by a Japanese chef trying to trick Americans into eating seaweed, which they thought was gross. But I love seaweed and I think uramaki ruins it by hiding it behind the rice. So I prefer authentic sushi.
I’m just happy when they don’t add a ton of sugar to sushi. seriously, what the hell is that?
Yeah i was just thinking specifically Chinese food. Authentic Chinese food is like chicken feet and scorpions on a stick and stuff.
Both of those specifically are also found in Mexico, funnily enough.
For some reason, I took this comic to mean a Japanese restaurant that serves food from other East Asian cultures.
“Yeah, we’d love to hire you for the cook role here at Taco Time, unfortunately you’re not authentic Mexican so we can’t.” - something never said before by a hiring manager.
Well, that would be WILDLY illegal but I get your point
“authentic” in terms of food and restaurant culture is just a dog whistle for “racist.”
Like please. I’m not in Italy, it’s not “authentic” it’s just Italian food. Food is a universal language and words added like “authentic” are just plain bigoted.
A person doesn’t have to be from a particular country to know how to cook their cuisine.
True dat - I’m proud of my thai food, haole that I am.
True, but at the same time, especially with Japanese restaurants, there’s usually a correlation
Not enough Latinos/Hispanics.
Found the American
An army travels on its stomach. – Napoleon
Americans can sit still because from farm to table Hispanics/Latinos are how food travels to American stomachs. Even the best pizza shop I ever lived next to (run by Pakistanis) still depended on central and south American labor to get everything into their Italian kitchen.
An army travels on its Mandroid Mark Tens – Tony Stark
Came here to say this, as someone with first hand experience there should be at least a Mexican either doing the dishes or running the prep and maybe another hurrying stuff around or running the floor
