Much appreciated 🫡

Do you not know the difference between an automated process and machine learning?

And not only did he see for himself, he wrote up and published his results.

100% this. The guy was literally a consultant and a developer. It’d just be bad business for him to outright dismiss AI without having actual hands on experience with said product. Clients want that type of experience and knowledge when paying a business to give them advice and develop a product for them.

Problem is that statistical word prediction has fuck-all to do with AI. It’s not and will never be. By “giving it a try” you contribute to the spread of this snake oil. And even if someone came up with actual AI, if it used enough resources to impact our ecosystem, instead of being a net positive, and if it was in the greedy hands of billionaires, then using it is equivalent to selling your executioner an axe.

As you said, “boilerplate” code can be script generated - and there are IDEs that already do this, but in a deterministic way, so that you don’t have to proof-read every single line to avoid catastrophic security or crash flaws.

Thats exactly what I so often find myself saying when people show off some neat thing that a code bot “wrote” for them in x minutes after only y minutes of “prompt engineering”. I’ll say, yeah I could also do that in y minutes of (bash scripting/vim macroing/system architecting/whatever), but the difference is that afterwards I have a reusable solution that: I understand, is automated, is robust, and didn’t consume a ton of resources. And as a bonus I got marginally better as a developer.

Its funny that if you stick them in an RPG and give them an ability to “kill any level 1-x enemy instantly, but don’t gain any xp for it” they’d all see it as the trap it is, but can’t see how that’s what AI so often is.

And then there are actual good developers who could or would tell you that LLMs can be useful for coding

The only people who believe that are managers and bad developers.

Other than that it’s work that junior coders could be doing, to develop the next generation of actual good developers.

That’s because you are not a proper developer, as proven by your comment. And you create tech legacy that will have a net cost in terms of maintenance or downtime.

The kind of useful article I would expect then is one exlaining why word prediction != AI

Vibe coders can’t debug code because they can’t write code

As a learning process it’s absolutely fine.

You make a mess, you suffer, you debug, you learn.

But you don’t call yourself a developer (at least I hope) on your CV.

The few times I’ve used LLMs for coding help, usually because I’m curious if they’ve gotten better, they let me down. Last time it was insistent that its solution would work as expected. When I gave it an example that wouldn’t work, it even broke down each step of the function giving me the value of its variables at each step to demonstrate that it worked… but at the step where it had fucked up, it swapped the value in the variable to one that would make the final answer correct. It made me wonder how much water and energy it cost me to be gaslit into a bad solution.

How do people vibe code with this shit?

If you’ve never had to debug code. Are you really a developer?

There is zero chance you have never written a big so… Who is fixing them?

Unless you just leave them because you work for Infosys or worse but then I ask again - are you really a developer?

I share a similar sentiment, but I’d place the turning point somewhere between 1 and 2 GHz.

I built a new PC early October, literally 2 weeks later RAM prices went nuts… so glad I pulled the trigger when I did

The story was invented so people would subscribe to his substack, which exists to promote his company.

We’re being manipulated into sharing made-up rage-bait in order to put money in his pocket.

I agree but look at that third paragraph, it has the dash that nobody ever uses. Tell tale signs right there

GPTZero is 99% accurate.

https://gptzero.me/news/gptzero-accuracy-stats/

@LiveLM@lemmy.zip @rimu@piefed.social

This!

Also, the irony: those are AI tools used by anti-AI people who use AI to try and (roughly) determine if a content is AI, by reading the output of an AI. Even worse: as far as I know, they’re paid tools (at least every tool I saw in this regard required subscription), so Anti-AI people pay for an AI in order to (supposedly) detect AI slop. Truly “AI-rony”, pun intended.

I’ve tested lots and lots of different ones. GPTZero is really good.

If you read the article again, with a critical perspective, I think it will be obvious.

The thing about this perspective is that I think its actually overly positive about LLMs, as it frames them as just the latest in a long line of automations.

Not all automations are created equal. For example, compare using a typewriter to using a text editor. Besides a few details about the ink ribbon and movement mechanisms you really haven’t lost much in the transition. This is despite the fact that the text editor can be highly automated with scripts and hot keys, allowing you to manipulate even thousands of pages of text at once in certain ways. Using a text editor certainly won’t make you forget how to write like using ChatGPT will.

I think the difference lies in the relationship between the person and the machine. To paraphrase Cathode Ray Dude, people who are good at using computers deduce the internal state of the machine, mirror (a subset of) that state as a mental model, and use that to plan out their actions to get the desired result. People that aren’t good at using computers generally don’t do this, and might not even know how you would start trying to.

For years ‘user friendly’ software design has catered to that second group, as they are both the largest contingent of users and the ones that needed the most help. To do this software vendors have generally done two things: try to move the necessary mental processes from the user’s brain into the computer and hide the computer’s internal state (so that its not implied that the user has to understand it, so that a user that doesn’t know what they’re doing won’t do something they’ll regret, etc). Unfortunately this drives that first group of people up the wall. Not only does hiding the internal state of the computer make it harder to deduce, every “smart” feature they add to try to move this mental process into the computer itself only makes the internal state more complex and harder to model.

Many people assume that if this is the way you think about software you are just an elistist gatekeeper, and you only want your group to be able to use computers. Or you might even be accused of ableism. But the real reason is what I described above, even if its not usually articulated in that way.

Now, I am of the opinion that the ‘mirroring the internal state’ method of thinking is the superior way to interact with machines, and the approach to user friendliness I described has actually done a lot of harm to our relationship with computers at a societal level. (This is an opinion I suspect many people here would agree with.) And yet that does not mean that I think computers should be difficult to use. Quite the opposite, I think that modern computers are too complicated, and that in an ideal world their internal states and abstractions would be much simpler and more elegant, but no less powerful. (Elaborating on that would make this comment even longer though.) Nor do I think that computers shouldn’t be accessible to people with different levels of ability. But just as a random person in a store shouldn’t grab a wheelchair user’s chair handles and start pushing them around, neither should Windows (for example) start changing your settings on updates without asking.

Anyway, all of this is to say that I think LLMs are basically the ultimate in that approach to ‘user friendliness’. They try to move more of your thought process into the machine than ever before, their internal state is more complex than ever before, and it is also more opaque than ever before. They also reflect certain values endemic to the corporate system that produced them: that the appearance of activity is more important than the correctness or efficacy of that activity. (That is, again, a whole other comment though.) The result is that they are extremely mind numbing, in the literal sense of the phrase.

Once you automate something, the corresponding skill set and experience atrophy. It’s a problem that predates LLMs by quite a bit. If the only experience gained is with the automated system, the skills are never acquired.

Well, to be fair, different skills are acquired. You’ve learned how to create automated systems, that’s definitely a skill. In one of my IT jobs there were a lot of people who did things manually, updated computers, installed software one machine at a time. But when someone figures out how to automate that, push the update to all machines in the room simultaneously, that’s valuable and not everyone in that department knew how to do it.

So yeah, I guess my point is, you can forget how to do things the old way, but that’s not always bad. Like, so you don’t really know how to use a scythe, that’s fine if you have a tractor, and trust me, you aren’t missing much.

It’s more like the ancient phenomenon of spaghetti code. You can throw enough code at something until it works, but the moment you need to make a non-trivial change, you’re doomed. You might as well throw away the entire code base and start over.

And if you want an exact parallel, I’ve said this from the beginning, but LLM coding at this point is the same as offshore coding was 20 years ago. You make a request, get a product that seems to work, but maintaining it, even by the same people who created it in the first place, is almost impossible.

I agree with you, though proponents will tell you that’s by design. Supposedly, it’s like with high-level languages. You don’t need to know the actual instructions in assembly anymore to write a program with them. I think the difference is that high-level language instructions are still (mostly) deterministic, while an LLM prompt certaily isn’t.

You can vibe write and vibe edit a movie now too. They also turn out shit.

The issue is that llm isnt a person with skills and knowledge. Its a complex guessing box that gets thing kinda right, but not actually right, and it absolutely cant tell whats right or not. It has no actual skills or experience or humainty that a director can expect a writer or editor to have.

@JuvenoiaAgent@piefed.ca @technology@lemmy.world

Often, those are developers who “specialized” in one or two programming languages, without specializing in computer/programming logic.

I used to repeat a personal saying across job interviews: “A good programmer knows a programming language. An excellent programmer knows programming logic”. IT positions often require a dev to have a specific language/framework in their portfolio (with Rust being the Current Thing™ now) and they reject people who have vast experience across several languages/frameworks but the one required, as if these people weren’t able to learn the specific language/framework they require.

Languages and framework differ on syntax, namings, paradigms, sometimes they’re extremely different from other common languages (such as (Lisp (parenthetic-hell)), or .asciz "Assembly-x86_64"), but they all talk to the same computer logic under the hood. Once a dev becomes fluent in bitwise logic (or, even better, they become so fluent in talking with computers that they can say 41 53 43 49 49 20 63 6f 64 65 without tools, as if it were English), it’s just a matter of accustoming oneself to the specific syntax and naming conventions from a given language.

Back when I was enrolled in college, I lost count of how many colleagues struggled with the entire course as soon as they were faced by Data Structure classes, binary trees, linked lists, queues, stacks… And Linear Programming, maximization and minimization, data fitness… To the majority of my colleagues, those classes were painful, especially because the teachers were somewhat rigid.

And this sentiment echoes across the companies and corps. Corps (especially the wannabe-programmer managers) don’t want to deal with computers, they want to deal with consumers and their sweet money, but a civil engineer and their masons can’t possibly build a house without willing to deal with a blueprint and the physics of building materials. This is part of the root of this whole problem.

The hard thing about debugging other people’s code is understanding what they’re trying to do. Once you’ve figured that out it’s just like debugging your own code. But not all developers stick to good patterns, good conventions or good documentation, and that’s when you can spend a long time figuring out their intention. Until you’ve got that, you don’t know what’s a bug.

where the massive decline in code quality catches up with big projects.

That’s going to depend, as always, on how the projects are managed.

LLMs don’t “get it right” on the first pass, ever in my experience - at least for anything of non-trivial complexity. But, their power is that they’re right more than half of the time AND when they can be told they are wrong (whether by a compiler, or a syntax nanny tool, or a human tester) AND then they can try again, and again as long as necessary to get to a final state of “right,” as defined by their operators.

The trick, as always, is getting the managers to allow the developers to keep polishing the AI (or human developer’s) output until it’s actually good enough to ship.

The question is: which will take longer, which will require more developer “head count” during that time to get it right - or at least good enough for business?

I feel like the answers all depend on the particular scenarios - some places some applications current state of the art AI can deliver that “good enough” product that we have always had with lower developer head count and/or shorter delivery cycles. Other organizations with other product types, it will certainly take longer / more budget.

However, the needle is off 0, there are some places where it really does help, a lot. The other thing I have seen over the past 12 months: it’s improving rapidly.

Will that needle ever pass 90% of all software development benefitting from LLM agent application? I doubt it. In my outlook, I see that needle passing +50% in the near future - but not being there quite yet.

@Jayjader@jlai.lu @technology@lemmy.world

Given how it’s very akin to dynamic and chaotic systems (e.g. double pendulum, whose initial position, mass and length rules the movement of the pendulum, very similar to how the initial seed and input rule the output of generative AIs) due to the insurmountable amount of physically intertwined factors and the possibility of generalizing the system in mathematical, differential terms, I’d say that the more fit would be a physicist. Or a mathematician. lol

As always, relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/435/

Edit: I’m an idiot.

Same here. Nobody knows what the eff they are doing. Especially the people in charge. Much of life is us believing confident people who talk a good game but dont know wtf they are doing and really shouldnt be allowed to make even basic decisions outside a very narrow range of competence.

We have an illusion of broad meritocracy and accountability in life but its mostly just not there.

Once Boston Dynamic style dogs and Androids can operate over a number of days independently, I’d say all bets are off that we would be kept around as pets.

I’m fairly certain your Musks and Altmans would be content with a much smaller human population existing to only maintain their little bubble and damn everything else.

What does lower top 10% mean?

As someone who has been shoved in the direction of using AI for coding by my superiors, that’s been my experience as well. It’s fine at cranking out stackoverflow-level code regurgitation and mostly connecting things in a sane way if the concept is simple enough. The real breakthrough would be if the corrections you make would persist longer than a turn or two. As soon as your “fix-it prompt” is out of the context window, you’re effectively back to square one. If you’re expecting it to “learn” you’re gonna have a bad time. If you’re not constantly double checking its output, you’re gonna have a bad time.

Trained dev with a decade of professional experience, humans routinely fail to get me workable specs without hours of back and forth discussion. I’d say a solid 25% of my work week is spent understanding what the stakeholders are asking for and how to contort the requirements to fit into the system.

If these humans can’t be explict enough with me, a living thinking human that understands my architecture better than any LLM, what chance does an LLM have at interpreting them?

Even more efficient: humans do the specs and the implementation. AI has nothing to contribute to specs, and is worse at implementation than an experienced human. The process you describe, with current AIs, offers no advantages.

AI can write boilerplate code and implement simple small-scale features when given very clear and specific requests, sometimes. It’s basically an assistant to type out stuff you know exactly how to do and review. It can also make suggestions, which are sometimes informative and often wrong.

If the AI were a member of my team it would be that dodgy developer whose work you never trust without everyone else spending a lot of time holding their hand, to the point where you wish you had just done it yourself.

Thus you get a piece of software that no one really knows shit about the inner workings of. Sure you have a bunch of spec sheets but no one was there doing the grunt work so when something inevitably breaks during production there’s no one on the team saying “oh, that might be related to this system I set up over here.”

How is what you’re describing different to what the author is talking about? Isn’t it essentially the same as “AI do this thing for me”, “no not like that”, “ok that’s better”? The trouble the author describes, ie the solution being difficult to change, or having no confidence that it can be safely changed, is still the same.

Have you used any AI to try and get it to do something? It learns generally, not specifically. So you give it instructions and then it goes, “How about this?” You tell it that it’s not quite right and to fix these things and it goes off on a completely different tangent in other areas. It’s like working with an 8 year old who has access to the greatest stuff around.