The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
And yet… linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as “not growing the userbase”
RTFM is great when it covers the problem you’re having, but I’ve seen multiple times in various forums, when the problem isn’t covered by the manual or the solution isn’t immediately obvious, the user is just ignored entirely. Some people have a really weird “linux doesn’t have any issues, its the user’s fault” attitude.
Last year I got told to RTFM and was linked to a documentation page that said
STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Which was very helpful
People don’t have the time/will to research alternatives, that’s why most of us follow trends. It’s the old mantra “if is good enough for him…”, and honestly, i don’t feel to blame anyone. Computers by now are a necessary tool and people want an easy “switch an play” solution to use it.
I was on a reddit thread the other day which was about Microsoft ending the support for Windows 10. Naturally, I thought people would be boasting about Linux in that thread, but nope, people just want to keep using windows 10 or want Steam to release SteamOS. This was the PC Gaming sub too.
Years ago this is exactly what happened with Windows XP. I still see the odd one hanging around somehow. I suspect this will be very similar.
I finally switched to Linux, while Linux itself is just as easy to use as Windows, actually installing Linux can be a nightmare. When setup works properly its no harder than windows, the other 95% of the time its about chasing down an easily solved problem but you have to figure out which easily solved problem it is.
You described installing old windows, before update took care of drivers.
I install Linux on many machines each year, and I can’t even remember the last time I had a problematic installation. Your experience sounds quite unusual. Are you using some obscure distro?
I had the same experience until i bought an HP (Omen) gaming laptop a couple of years ago. Even regular Ubuntu didn’t boot from USB drive. I had to mess with some kernel parameters (ACPI or something) to even boot it. Unfortunately sometimes you have some hardware or weird bios that just doesn’t work. Never had this with any other laptop after
This may be due to manufacturers locking their machines down with Secure Boot and only installing the keys that allow it to boot Windows. It’s not something that could be fixed by the makers of the Linux install disk. They’d need to persuade the hardware manufacturer to preinstall their key.
Mint Cinnamon. It turned out just to be switching the name of a file on the boot media but it took a long time to work through other issues to get there.
I love Mint. It’s still my favorite Debian-rooted distro, even though I moved on from it more than a decade ago. But their refusal to adapt their install image to newbie-proof it frustrates me so much. I can’t think of another mainline distro that’s given me any problems in creating install media or installing, and that makes it impossible for me to recommended Mint to anyone who won’t have me over their shoulder during the install process.
I commend you for sticking to it and figuring out what the issue and fix were. 90% of users would have given up, reinstalled Windows, and went on Reddit to complain about how shitty Linux is.
I mean I did complain on lemmy about how annoying it was a few times, its a shame too because this problem turned out to be super simple and potentially super common, it would just take a couple of lines being changed on the official setup guide to resolve it… actually come to think of it since its just renaming a file all it would take is having 2 copies of that file in the image with both names since only one is ever going to be used at a time anyway.
I mean if people move to steamOS how is that not a win?
That is a win. I was just surprised to not see anyone just say any of the existing distros, you know, multiple solutions that already exist.
Strange, I was also on a thread about ending support, and I found (and upvoted) tons of comments about switching to Linux. Must have been from different communities.
The work windows did to make early windows intuitive really paid off. I was able to figure a lot out as a kid so I could play snake and minesweeper etc. Leaning into that will onboard new users, and that’s why mint is so successful
Random fact: The guy that did the hook a Macklemore’s thrift shop was partially responsible for that.
Windows is not as hard as Linux. You’re just being silly at this point. I’m not saying Windows is better, but it is engineered from the ground up to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
Case in point, installing a program on Windows? Double click the exe and you’re done. On Linux? It can be that simple but usually is much more involved.
Yes. After using Linux for servers and lower end machines I switched to mint on my main desktop a week ago. And while I’m quite pleased, it was not a seamless experience. I had to use a script that fixes my Bluetooth headset that connected but wasn’t showing up as an audio device when reconnecting, and apt sometimes having very out of date packages that just don’t work anymore. I love Linux but i really find it frustrating that many Linux users just seem a bit out of touch, don’t see that even some basics sometimes need weird fixes and that windows is just better at working out of the box. I really want Linux to get there but tbh i don’t see that happening in the near future.
Honestly after using Linux for a while I greatly prefer to just enter one command in my terminal to install something like a CPU monitoring tool or a disk space analyzer. All in all I don’t think Linux is any harder vs windows, it’s just different and most people are used to working with Windows so Linux is “hard”. Like if there’s an issue with a program you just run it from terminal and it’ll tell you exactly what’s wrong usually, whereas on Windows I have to google these obscure error logs from eventvwr.
The fact that you’re capable of using a terminal or Googling error logs puts you in the top 10% of computer users. You do not understand just how dumb the average person is.
Yes you’re right, I realize all too well as I work in tech support, I just find that on a technical level that both are just as “hard” each with their own peculiarities.
If you allow me a random question; I’m new to Lemmy and made my account in lemmy.world but I can only see the context of our discussion in lemm.ee, is this expected? What I mean is the “show context” button isn’t working for me except when I go to the source of your comment here : https://lemm.ee/comment/19375854
EDIT : I think it was a language setting thing which I’ve reverted back to “undetermined” after making that first comment. Like I can’t even find that comment back on my own profile but I can find this one perfectly fine. Sorry I’m new to this lol.
Lemmy.world has a lot of censorship from what I understand. Maybe it’s related to that?
On the other hand half the users I interact with on EE are Chinese propaganda promoters so it’s a trade off.
I’ve managed to fix it. I had to set my language to the same as when I made my initial comment to you, then I could actually find it and edited that one as language “undertermined”. Then changed my profile language back to “undetermined” and everything looks ok now. It’s now all showing up in lemmy.world for me with full context. I guess lemmy.world is more strict about this type of stuff vs lemm.ee
That’s true! I just remember helping my troubleshoot his issues recently and it was a nightmare going into the registry and editing stuff, the UX is so bad!
I love when Linux gets complex because it makes sense. When Windows gets complex with Powershell, or any other horrible stuff in this OS, I just wish it wouldn’t lol.
Again, still not the norm. But I pray for all the nontechnical gen-z players of Valorant when something bad happens on their PC lol
Double click the exe, pending update blocks the installer, reboot, click the exe, go through a wizard that ask questions you don’t know the answer to (usually defaults are ok though), be prompted for admin password, get blocked by corporate policies, fill out the IT ticket, have them remote to your box and install, reboot, find the program in the menu, run it, have it blocked by HBSS, put in ticket for that, update antivirus, reboot, manually pull group policy updates, reboot, more updates install, reboot, run the program.
Obviously silly, but also real.
Not relevant when you own the machine.
It took me more time to read your post than to install a program.
It depends on what you are doing
As it turns out, there are a lot of tools that work best on Linux because they were intended to be used on a Linux system. Same goes for Windows stuff that is meant to be run on Windows. You can make it work but for the most polished experience it is best to stick with something well supported.
Windows has the excuse of being preinstalled everywhere. It makes it very hard to break system or to use the system in a way not blessed by Microsoft.
Linux is fairly easy to learn and gives you lots and lots of power.
It looks like everyone always forget about Chromebooks or kind of ignore them…
I super hate Chromebooks. My mom gave my kid one and it’s ruining my life. I should have just binned it and gotten him a real laptop with mint or ubermix.
He has a computer now with ubermix, but it’s an uphill battle.
You could ask him what he wants
Best way to engage kids in tech is to give them options.
Oh I know what he wants. He wants me to put games on it. If I do it’ll wreck his sleep habits for life
Family link Is Great for that
Depending on his age that may or may not be acceptable. My parents used to have a charging station away from bedrooms. The rules was that tech went on the charger at a certain time.
Tip, you can put full Linux on most chromebooks and chromeos devices. I’ve done it before mrchromebox.tech
I’ve tried and failed. I forget the particulars but I wasn’t able to get it to accept the change.
On mine I had to use a BIOS flasher tool since it was locked and Dev mode wasn’t allowed to be enabled (think it was due to enterprise enrollment), though flashing the image directly worked like a charm following the unbricking guide.
I like Chromebooks
I would use one if it wasn’t a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
I like Chromebooks
I would use one if it wasn’t a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don’t think anyone claiming that it’s not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.
Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we’ll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.
That just depends on what you want to do
If you’re a tinker on Linux then you will be on Windows
If you’re the lowest common denominator on Windows then you will be on Linux
Linux just makes it easier for the user
Microsoft saw a world
That’s not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.
Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that’s before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don’t want to.
Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.
Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it’s not unwarranted.
Nobody has ever been fired for ordering
SAPMicrosoft, right?Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done. Microsoft has powerful software and a big ecosystem around it.
Windows is really good for administrating lots of workstations for large organizations for example.
Honestly Active Directory is so underrated. I think having the ability to run all your machines Inna shared collective with group policies and high controls really helped Windows adoption.
Even today there isn’t anything quite like Windows polices. Sure you can get the same effect on Linux but it takes a lot more work and requires more scripting and customization. I think Apple and Android have equivalent management tools but I don’t really know how they compare in practice.
Nobody disputed that their current software works.
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done.
The issue in this case is that the vast majority of companies will choose a tool made by a company that will now be bending their will to a fascist dictator whose cronies cannot be trusted to do rudimentary operational security.
There was always the nebulous stranglehold that the US might have on the IT security of any company that chooses Microsoft, because you cannot build Windows and the vast majority of their software from source, or audit them.
From the IT security perspective of Europe it’s exactly like all zero-days and backdoors known and implemented by the US intelligence agencies were just handed over to North Korea.
Last time I checked there wasn’t an easy alternative. Linux might work for some things but it isn’t straight forward to manage and maintain.
It is best to try and keep Geopolitics out of software
You can’t get rid of Windows as it is deeply entrenched and heavily depended on.
This is exactly how I felt when I switched to Linux and it “clicked”.
This is what personal computers were supposed to always be like before Capitalism ruined it for everyone.
It is fun to talk to older people who have never used anything but DOS/Windows
They insist that they need a GUI as they keep trying to use CLI tools like it is 1980.
Nothing wrong you say. Sure, noooothing can go wrong with this approach (I am looking at climate changes, fucking plastic in living organisms, wars not stopping even for a day, idiots in positions of power). Cool story bro, does not work
Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.
From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn’t care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn’t care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.
This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you’re going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.
The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.
I switched to Linux mint because I don’t want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won’t anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I’m as happy as a clam in shit.
An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.
Linux Mint is a great distro, and I’m happy it works for you.
In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don’t care much for the terminal - but you made it through.
The people that didn’t make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.
P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn’t completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.
If laptops started coming pre-installed with Linux Mint…
I give people prepared USBs…
I just imagined a shady looking dude in a dark alley saying in a gruff voice “I got all the distros you need man, check these out” while opening his trench coat and revealing hundreds of flash drives.
😂🙏🏻👌🏻
I remember back when I was a kid, the only way I was even able to try Ubuntu was through “WUBI” which was pretty cool - it allowed you to “install” Ubuntu via Windows, by leveraging the VHD support in the Windows 7 bootloader. It could also be uninstalled via the Windows control panel as it was registered just like any other program.
As far as I understand, it was discontinued because of inherent technical issues with that system - but I always thought if it could be done again, then it’d help bridge the gap a bit. All you had to do was download the installer, and double click it like any other program.
I had no clue how to write an image to a flash drive, hell I doubt I even had a flash drive to use at the time. 😅
Ubuntu used to mail out free install CDs for a while. Nowadays many people don’t have optical drives anymore though.
I did get one of those at one point! Definitely no longer have it anymore, but it was really cool that Canonical provided those for quite a while (from what I know).
You can also order USB flash drives with a linux iso already on it for ten bucks or so.
Ya the thumb drive was a tripping point for me. Took me a minute to understand I had to reformat the drive itself. I also didn’t try to partition anything.
I agree with you in general, but there are people out there making specific distros with that sort of stuff in mind too. Ublue’s OSs is pretty much that: “just use it and leave the tinkering to us”. And I would argue if you’re not a developer doing advanced stuff, those work just as smoothly as windows does.
Agreed. There are many facets to this problem, so it’s difficult to get in one post, so I’ll try to reconcile the main points.
The core of what I’m trying to say, is don’t kill Linux trying to become Windows. Linux is great because it diverse, but it also has difficulties because of this. We should not change (nor destroy) the ecosystem for people who do not care to understand it.
That being said, we can also make it easier for people who do care and cooperate to make it over. But if we do this we, as Linux users, have to look at this from the right lens. The question is not “Linux users, what do you find difficult?”; this is survivorship bias. The question is “Windows users, why can’t you get Linux on your machine?”. From this framing, the real issues become a lot more apparent:
- Not savvy enough to set up USB stick
- Driver, and other hardware, issues
- Programs needed for work, or general daily usage, are unavailable
- Too much tinkering required (this is related to, but not the same as RTFM and CLI)
The first two points can be solved by purchasing a machine from a Linux OEM (i.e System76). If this is not possible, then you are going to have to do research; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
AI has a good and valid use-case here, as it can significantly ease this process (even if it’s only right 60% of the time).
Linux may not have an alternative for your preferred programs; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Developers should follow open guidelines (i.e POSIX). If they refuse to, there is nothing Linux can (nor should) do about it.
The last point can be solved by distro choice, we completely agree here. The problem is finding said distro, which is difficult. For example, I’ve never heard of Ublue until your post. I appreciate distros that handle defaults and don’t push breaking changes. The community can make this better by having a dedicated website (with a decision tree) for choosing a distro, but this has its own set of issues.
No matter, the responsibility falls on the user to pick the right distro; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Torvalds should create a standards/stewardship for a my-first-linux introduction to linux. Super minimalist and specifically puts limits on its complexity. Make it good enough for the average person who has installed windows machines to be able to install
And every one of you linux people need to support all distros including the ones youve never heard of, or wouldnt touch it with the appropriate substitute of 10ft pole
The amount of bickering ive seen about “best distros” is insane. You people sound like rabid sports fans, or idiotic ford vs chevy luddites.
Linux as a brand needs a massive overhaul of its public image.
And that happens by making it dumb stupid easy for people to get started.
What does your computer need to do? Identify a set up, including a version of all the tools 40% of all users will need or rely on, and make it simple to plug a peripheral in and make it work seemlessly.
IIIRC im told Mint is most of the way to this.
If gamers are who made windows what it is today, i think its going to be content creators who will push the next era of pc users
I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
And that was before the SteamDeck too.
Indeed, we should not. Thank you for saying this
This means that there’s plenty of room for companies to sell curated lists of apps that just magically work. I would buy the shit out of that for a work machine that just needs to work, no matter what. I’d also pay for something like that for my mom or my fiancé neither of them are particularly tech interested but will happily use something if it works.
This is actually a really deep rabbit-hole. To avoid typing a novel, I’m going to cut out a lot of nuance.
Windows is installed by default on machines. Since people do not change defaults (many studies have been done on this), this is checkmate. As long as this is true, Linux will not have a major (20%+) market share.
So this has to start from the OEM. Several Linux OEMs exist (i.e Tuxedo Computers, System76, Framework) but they cannot compete with the Microsoft network. Those who are interested in Linux, but are not tech savvy, really really really should buy their device from a Linux OEM.
Driver issues are near non-existent on Linux OEM hardware. So software is the next step; and let me tell you, developing for Linux is rough. There are 2 window servers, 2 graphic stacks, 2 desktop environments, 2 coding standards, 2 C libraries,… you get the point. A lot of this can be abstracted, but it takes genuine work to do - and may be obsoleted in a month; meaning no company will do this.
All to say, creating “magically working” apps - even with a lot of monetary support - is a herculean task. Even Valve (who is FLUSHED with cash) gave up and just decided to make their own distro (SteamOS).
A lot of issues also just require personal tweaks due to open-source software being extraordinarily bad at setting sane defaults. With something like Windows, you can hire people to make this better. Who do you hire to fix the defaults for 300 independent projects? And will the devs even listen to them?
I could keep going, but you get the point, the buck is going to have to stop at the user for a lot of things.
The best solution (in my opinion) is to have specialized distros and have people choose from them. Want to game? SteamOS. Want to dev? Fedora. Want to surf the web? Linux Mint. Creating, and more importantly accurately listing, specialized distros will make lives easier. Leave the defaults to the devs, just download the “vibe” you want.
That is exactly what Linux distributions are, not?
Like, if you buy e.g. Tuxedo you have Linux and essential apps preinstalled, because it comes with your distro of choice out of box.
My wife is on NixOS, because she wanted a system that would be exactly the same if it died. She doesn’t know Linux from Mac or Windows; She doesn’t care about privacy or where apps come from, only that it operates the exact same everyday. (And Windows could not satisfy this requirement)
A pain point I’ve seen with NixOS for new users is the focus on editing files — how easy is it for her to install applications that way?
She doesn’t install apps, Her config is what she needs. But nixOS install is pretty simple if you can copy paste text.
You go here https://search.nixos.org/packages
Search for a package, and click if you want permanent or ephemeral app and paste the code into the shell or into your config file.
Run a rebuild
Pretty easy
Yeah, I’m used to NixOS — however, having to edit the config (instead of e.g. a package manager) is a common pain point I see when others use NixOS, and it often leads to them switching distros.
Yeah, I find it simple, but I’m used to text edits driving batch files etc. Daily driver I use Tumbleweed, the Yast zypper GUI gives you select and apply for pqckages, no command line needed.
IIRC, flatpaks do work with NixOS so long as it’s enabled (and you’ve installed GNOME Software / Discover / etc - since I assume they’re not using the terminal to install programs, and that’s assuming that they don’t need more than a web browser).
So, if OP already set that up, then if Flathub has all you need, then it would make sense.
Though the Nix philosophy would disagree because that’s imperatively installing software rather than declaratively. You could probably wire up something to dump
flatpak listto a file every so often and then load that in fromconfiguration.nixor a Flake, but I’m not well versed in Nix at all haha
Kinda insightful, as someone who loves UX
I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid… That’s what “RTFM” sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.
I think the troll users are getting old and grey at this point. People people are willing to help.
Even technical folks aren’t huge fans of RTFM.
If I’m doing something incredibly interesting, and I’m asking for help, I should RTFM.
If I’m doing something routine, we can (and usually do, now), make it simple enough not to need a manual.
These days, they could even just ATFAI (like Ask The Fucking AI) and would arrive at desired destination.
The thing that prevents adoption is the human fear of change.
Hot take among what often seems to be an “AI is the devil!” crowd.
😄yes, but to be honest, I, for example, learned practically all coding I can by reading code together with AI
And as it is code, I see what happens when I compile/execute it and can uncover hallucinations like this.
Of course, my code is at first vibe programming with many small commits, but as soon as it is working, I clean up by rebasing and double checking all commits to be consistent.
And it generally helps me well with my Linux issues, as it is pretty good parsing the arch wiki
I understand the impetus behind RTFM - It happens when the user failed to do basic troubleshooting and expects others to do their thinking. Being blown off doesn’t feel great, but other people’s time is valuable, and in the end your system is your own responsibility.
Don’t go onto forums that are specifically to help people if you don’t have the time then. Or at the very least don’t link the whole 10000 word manual and give me a specific place to look because I promise if I have overcome my anxiety of looking stupid enough to post on the forum I have checked the manual multiple times.
Make Local LUGs Great Again.
My brain had to work hard to pull that acronym from the depths lol.
RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.
I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I’m having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.
Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.
The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn’t there.
just google it and the google is just a reddit post that says [deleted]
Or “if you’re having trouble there is no manual, FAQ, or wiki, just join our discord troubleshooting channel” vomit
And after hours of troubleshooting, you give in and join the Discord where you’re promptly ignored.
Or if you’re really lucky, people are willing to help, so you spend hours more troubleshooting, often repeating many of the same steps, only for all of them to give up too. (As was my experience when I tried to switch to Linux Mint.)
What were you doing on mint that had that many issues? I am genuinely asking because I have always seen it basically be bullet proof.
Play audio through my mobo’s built-in 3.5mm jack (without a significant delay). For whatever reason, Mint just really didn’t like my mobo, and no one was able to figure it out.
Oh, I know this one! Make sure you’re using pipewire and use HDAJackRetask. You can reassign the ports to whatever, you can even swap mic and headphone if you want.
Thats really unfortunate. Hardware support on linux is really hit or miss and until it is seen as a worth while investment to make sure that products work well on linux by the manufacturers it will remain that way but I can not fault anyone for going back to windows when things on their system just will not work.
Or isn’t deleted but either has no replies or replies that didn’t help them either
Those cases where the users didn’t WTFM
It’s the same way you gotta ask if they turned it off and on again. Too many don’t even look up the manual, now yes. Some hostility is just plain hostility, but the phrase is there for a good reason.
Maybe if the people giving advice would RTFM, they’d know what isn’t in it.
That shit is the reason that I will never run vanilla arch again. So many people that are so sure that something that is not in the manual is in there for so many different questions.
Git gud
/s
man 1 git-gud
Plus I don’t want to spend 30 minutes to wade through pages of documentation for a 5-word command that makes my speakers work.
Aaaand why is that? It’s hard to read because…?
We need individuals like you to help it out. It’s like wikipedia
It’s hard to read because people lack background knowledge. Man pages were horrible for my first 15 years or so.
Once you have the skills that you hardly need to read them they’re fine.
That’s why everyone wants to look it up on stack exchange, they want the answer, not an unending series of lessons
Man pages are still not great on Linux. Very few examples with common use-cases and explanations. I shouldn’t need to visit the Arch wiki.
OpenBSD man pages are a delight in comparison, and really all you need to learn how to manage the system.
tldris the application you need.This is a great project. Should replace man for noob distros.
They are hard to read because they are written to explain concepts to people who already understand them. Handy if you just need them for reference. Useless if you are trying to learn. Which is why RTFM is often bad advice
I’m currently trying to migrate my stack on my VPS from docker to podman. Bonus points if I get it running rootless.
Somehow, podman compose just wouldn’t work with my existing docker compose file. I quickly found out that podman has many options, but quadlets are preferred. It took me a while to understand what they even are and their concept. I did get the idea and the concept from the docs, but everything else was demonstrating how to set up a very simple one (think a hello world container). Or I found some blog posts with ready made complex examples for some random stacks that were way over my head. But a simple tutorial on how to map the fields/parts of a docker compose to a
.container,.networkor.volumefile for my stack consisting of several containers in a few networks with a reverse proxy in front of it? Nope.I’m the end I found podlet and used that to convert a docker-compose. While the result wasn’t completely working (e.g. a problem with some environment vars that got passed and switched in a few “layers” that podlet understandably messed up), it was enough to understand all of it with the docs and complete the quadlet. Now I just need to experiment with the rootless part.
Currently, my first and foremost pet peeve is, that different distros use different approaches and utilities, but many blog posts or guides don’t tell you what distro they’re for. If you google the problem and find the fourth guide on how to solve it and realize halfway through, that it’s again e.g. for Debian based systems, while you’re running on SUSE or RedHat or Arch or… can be very frustrating.
Is there no tutorial for mapping docker compose into .container, .network, .volume file at all? That’s unbelievable, one would expect there surely is one.
Maybe I didn’t search right, but since I found podlet first, while looking for a tutorial, I was lazy and gave it a try. It’s result was enough to get me there. Maybe, had I completely read the podlet docs and checked all optional arguments, o could have gotten a perfect result. But that way, I learned better about quadlets.
It’s hard to read because it’s a manual made for technical users.
On Linux most of the software is made by freelance developers who often forget that all users are not technical and even if they are they don’t want to be forced to interact with technical stuff. For the same reason I don’t want to daily-drive gentoo, sometimes I don’t want to read the manual.
I happen to be a contributor on multiple FOSS project and most didn’t have a docs directory in their repo or website, let alone an user guide. That’s fine for a CLI program to rely on wiki/manuals but graphical apps should have a user guide on their website. Working on documentation is a thankless job in FOSS spaces.
Then people need to be taught how to read better. Not Linux’s fault the education system was dismantled over the years.
What an arrogant comment 😂
I’m probably gonna get hated on for this but here’s my story:
About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.
I’d read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.
None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I’ll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn’t play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.
Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I’d spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.
So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.
I hate that I’m still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn’t work on Windows , it’s usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn’t work on Linux it’s a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux’s file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.
Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That’s why everyone uses Windows.
You sound like a Windows power user and of course linux will be harder because you are not used to it.
I had a simmilar first months until I was used to linux. Now I find many things much more convinient in Linux.
And yes there is hardware that works in windows but not in linux like there is hardware that wont work in macos. But over time you will only buy stuff that is compatible and you wont think about it anymore.
Thats why I recommend dual booting at the start because sometimes you need to get shit done without trying to learn the new way and so you don’t get burnt out. But if you keep at it you will start to use windows less and less.
Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.
Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.
If the laptop manufacturers aren’t advertising Linux support, it’s up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.
You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.
With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.
For new hardware, it’s still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.
This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.
Yeh, I’d come to that conclusion myself. The laptop I bought was a 2023 lenovo legion 9i which is have discovered is not a particularly popular model but shares a lot of it’s DNA with the far more popular 7i. So I figured most of the software and fixes would be cross-compatible. Turns out that I was wrong. I’m not giving up hope yet, and I’m not gonna get rid of the laptop anytime soon. Maybe they’ll be a new kernal that come out which fix the issues I’ve been having.
To be fair, you most likely have nvidia in your PC.
As I see it, the distos you tried ether have a gui to install those proprietary drivers, but are on old kernel or no GUI to install them, but a recent kernel.
Installing nvidia drivers on endeavourOS is very simple and you always get the newest fixes after writing “yay” into console.
Installing apps is as easy as “yay [desired app]” and then choose out of the list. (Just don’t take the “-git” versions but the “-bin” versions 🤭)
After that, install steam out of multilib and make sure to pick the right vulkan package (based on GPU driver in use)
All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux, because nvidia is not caring enough about Linux yet.
Only way to fix that is adoption.
All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux,
I installed mint, opened the driver manager, picked the latest NVIDIA driver and it just worked. No idea what everybody is talking about …
Granted I’m on an old 1080ti, so maybe that’s it …
It is just to get newer versions of the proprietary drivers faster, and to have a more similar environment as developers. (Like if a feature of the driver is dependent on a new API just added to nearly most recent kernel)
Kernel updates can bring better support for different hardware which as well can influence how well the GPU drivers work, like, improving them.
😇but nice to hear that it works on your machine well 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Even Nvidia drivers have come a long way recently. I used to always have a windows setup and used it more than Linux whenever I was off work, but this year I was finally confident enough on Linux to ditch it. I have Nvidia gpus on all my PCs, with both Intel and AMD cpus, and they are all working perfectly fine with multiple 4k screens.
So far there were only two games I was unable to play on Linux - Demoncrawl and Inzoi. And the second is filled with reports saying it works ootb for other Linux users, so if I had tried to tinker I could probably get it to work. (I haven’t had to tinker with anything else tho).
Thanks this is very helpful. I was steering clear of the more terminal heavy distros as tbh I find the terminal a bit daunting as a noob. I’ll give it a go tho.
Don’t know about your hardware. I don’t own a notebook anymore. I read good things about the AUR package optimus-manager-qt for hybrid GPUs (iGPU+dedicated GPUs) but also that it can be a bit tricky.
I exlusively used dedicated Nvidia cards in desktop rigs with Arch & EndeavourOS since 2017 when I switched from Win 10. Additionally exclusively KDE.
Though I had a bit of experience with other distros and desktop environments before my switch I’d wager to say you should give one last try to EndeavourOS, even if you have barely any Linux experience. I mean you had so many failed attempts. One more won’t hurt.
Use EndeavourOS not arch. First, it uses the standard initial graphical system-setup (Calamares), then it comes with some good default settings & tools and finally a welcome screen which features links to additional tools like mirror selection (for faster updates), update shortcuts, package search, docs/wikis/forums or logs.
I’d select KDE in Calamares and I’d install the graphical package manager octopi via “yay octopi” after system installation and activate yay for the AUR in the octopi settings as e.g. optimus-manager-qt (which you should only use with hybrid GPUs) is only available in the AUR. You need to click the alien symbol in octopi to install from the AUR.
The AUR (Arch User Repository) is the repository for packages not available in the main repositories. AUR packages are user contributed where the maintainers write a so called PKGBUILD file which contains the steps to build and install a package from foreign sources (e.g. from a debian DPKG or from github sources). With octopi you can quickly open the PKGBUILD file and look from where the maintainer pulls the parts of the package.
The amount of software available in the AUR is gigantic but it can potentially contain malware (which happened a very few times). But you’ll have a hard time finding users who actually had that happen to them. A good indicator that the package is ok are its number of votes. But if you really want to know you have to check the sources in the PKGBUILD. If they come from github, you could check the github-repo and only it’s stars (votes) if you won’t read the sourcecode.
That all sounds mighty complicated but it isn’t. Just try to install packages from the main repo. Click the alien symbol only when you don’t find something official.
So with octopi and the welcome screen you don’t need to enter any terminal commands for package installation or the system update. I had only a few updates where problems occurred in like 7 years and they were always fixable. The Arch Wiki and the Endeavour forums could always help.
I can’t guarantee you’ll have a better experience than with the other distros and you will meet some bumps or roadblocks for sure. I’m not playing the the most current games and a lot of retro games via Lutris and Heroic. For some of them I had to tinker a bit and try different starters than Steam. Arma, Path of Exile, Sekiro (fitgirl repack), Diablo Immortal were tricky but all the steam games or e.g. Witcher 3 via Heroic run very nice.
On the screen where you login (usually SDDM) you can switch between Wayland and X11. Which are two very different Display managers. Wayland is the replacement for the very old X11. It works way(land) better with AMD GPUs than with Nvidia which are usable though but work much better on X11. Games can be faster on wayland for Nvidia than on X11. But things like missing color management in nvidia-settings make me stay with X11.
Thanks of taking the time to write all this. I’ll certainly give it a go once I’ve worked up the will power to go back down the rabbit hole!
Oh yeah as mentioned in a comment below Nobara based on Fedora could also be a very good distro if you’re out for gaming.
This is much less a Linux problem and much more a communuty one. We really need a semi-centralized place to get recent linux info and a nice guide on linux specific knowlage for beginners, but then people will cry needing to learn what wayland/x11 and such are will turn people away. Whoever was telling you windows games 10-15% faster were fucking dumbasses, I have zero problem running any game I want on my machine but the preformace has been exactly the same as windows (which I still consider a win for linux)
The next big problem is people going “We don’t need gaming distros” when those gaming distros are made to solve this exact problem. If you haven’t already try out Bazzite or Nobara and it might “just work” (no promises tho). But a distro like Mint/Pop/Debian are going to have a lot of missing drivers/package updates for the latest hardware, Fedora needs relatively a lot of post-install tinkering to get things working since they only ship opensource packages by default, Garuda is not ment for beginners and uses a more unstable kernal for preformance, but you still need to tinker with drivers. Bazzite and Nobara are the two big distros that aim to “just work” out of the box and even re-package some software with the latest fixes. And incase you don’t like the look of them, you can install whatever theme over KDE Plasma you want
Ofc I get if your tired of hearing “just install this distro instead” but a lot of advice is coming from others who also don’t actually know whats going on under the surface, and sometimes your hardware just isn’t supportes (not a linux issue but a manufacturer one). And if your at the point where using windows for gaming works and thats enough for you, nothin wrong with just using windows
Well, that sounds like issues with your specific hardware, because that’s definitely not the usual Linux experience.
Tip for next time: find some distro that has up to date kernel. Ubuntu, Mint and Debian are definitely not good if you have very recent hardware, they stay on old kernels for quite a long time. And drivers are in the kernel.
I have to disagree about Windows being easier, but that’s fairly subjective. What’s 100% objective is that it’s definitely not the reason everyone uses Windows, the reason is much simpler: it came with their machine.
Anyway, I recommend Nobara for gaming - it’s basically Fedora, but preconfigured for gaming and general normal use.
Thanks, I’ll give it a whirl and see how I get on.
I have similar experiences. I converted my surface laptop to linux and overall I’m happy that I did, but games that ran fine on windows now are unplayable because I can’t get it to work properly, neither with wine, unbottled nor proton.
I still have a W10 gaming pc and I planned on converting it to linux with pop os being the frontrunner, but I will keep it on dual boot with the fallback scenario of just going with W11. Linux is not and might never be ready for mass adoption because it is simply too reliant on volunteers, forums and self-troubleshooting for that.
Microsoft and Apple provide OS’es that are thoroughly tested and validated with firmware and drivers that are specifically written for them by people whose job it is to do that. It might not always be perfect, but it usually does what it needs to do right away.
Oh interesting! What model surface do you have? I have a surface pro which I was considering converting (before the above nightmare) but have read that MS have made it super difficult for anything later than a 7 and I have an 8.
It’s quite easy actually. Just google linux surface and you will find the project website where they list all surface models and potential issues with installation guidelines. I have a pro 8. The only thing not working are the cameras as nobody has figured out the drivers yet.
Edit: Project GitHub page https://github.com/linux-surface/
Wait, what brand/model laptop did you get?
A lenovo legion 9i
I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn’t see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG’d the issue, but I couldn’t find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I’ve spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I’m making is, Linux isn’t really that hard to learn, it’s just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧
Ummm… Both gnome and kde apps should work on any desktop environment
My guess is that they are using a KDE distro that doesn’t properly package gnome stuff
That’s just a guess though
🧐never had an linux app not working because it was “not designed for my desktop environment” I am confused, I was sure all Linux app run on all window manager / desktop environment 🤔
Are you sure?
Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there’s no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!
Windows is to Linux what McDonald’s is to cooking your own food.
Honestly that’s a pretty good comparison
Linux is going to cook your own food, then realising that you don’t have half the ingredients, so you either have the choice of going to the shop where all the food is labelled in Swahili, and there’s no pictures of what’s in the packages, and a lot of the people who shop there are kinda stuck up and look down at you for not speaking Swahili, and by the time you’ve gone round the shop three times and asked for help and you’re still not sure what you’ve got in the trolley but you buy it anyway and then you get home and you’ve got some of the stuff for dinner but you’re still missing some essential ingredients OR going to McDonald’s and getting everything on the menu but Ronald follows you home.
So that’s what cooking feels like for people who never cooked before.
More like a restaurant that has Korean BBQ / hot pot on the menu. Most meals are completely prepared, but for some you need to do a small part yourself.
You know what, I like this one. And just like KBBQ/hot pot, there’s gonna be people who ask “what’s the point of going to a restaurant if they make you cook it yourself?” And you know what I say to those people?
You’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that - also, more hot pot for me!
10/10 analogy
I’ve used a Mac since forever. But I started using FOSS apps. Then I created a Hackintosh, until it borked. Then I installed ZorinOS and almost didn’t need to fix the Hackintosh. I did fix it, but Zorin convinced me that Linux is legit and I’m going all in on it.
Did you develop a desire to flood silicon valley while escaping via blimp after you started using Zorin? Asking for a friend.
Hmm…by blimp, you say? 🤔
Like that time Max Zorin of Zorin Industries went nuts, prompting the British secret service to intervene.
I think I blocked that film from my memory. 🤣 Thanks a lot, now I have to go rewatch it. 🙄
Literally had a former co-worker who has taught computer science classes at universities, ran his own PC repair business, and avoids the command line like the plague. Says it feels ancient.
If you’re under 30 and read this and have been on the fence about getting good with computers… Just setup a Linux VM and play around with the terminal. You’ll be leagues beyond so many active professionals it’s scary.
It’s okay to have a preference. In my. 20+ years with Linux, I’ve coded with and for it, did low level embedded development with it, used it at home for school and entertainment, used for amateur photography, even managed a small server for a startup.
I still would rather use a GUI, because I have not specialized in most of the tasks. It’s less powerful, but it’s just more intuitive. It’s less portable between DEs, but it’s easier. And if your only doing that once in a blue moon, it’s more than enough.
It’s absolutely fine to prefer a GUI. At a professional level it is not fine to not understand what is happening beneath the hood.
Full stop.
If you don’t know how to use TCP dump, I don’t want you using wireshark on my dime.
I don’t agree with the full stop. Eliminating nuance is rarely good. Most tasks an IT professional will execute will be done several times a month, so memorizing the tar command options might be useful if that’s something they do all the time. But demanding that a person is proficient with the CLI as a way to prove familiarity with how things work under the hood is just fallacious.
I coded in vim and we built our own makefiles to deploy our code into our proprietary microcontroller. We also used JTAG to connect gdb with the microcontroller, and not even the guy that coded the JTAG interface would be able to write JTAG commands by hand.
I disagree entirely.
Abstraction away from what is happening never adds value in the long run.
Full stop.
Vibe coders be damned.
So you write out all your commands as machine code I assume? wait no, obviously you set the transistor state manually with an electron gun?
You need people who can read and debug machine code and dig through hex and binary in cybersecurity.
I use ghidra and IDA pro literally every week. And if you don’t know how to use hexdump, you shouldnt be using those tools in the job.
Binary exploitation is common.
So no, but you literally should be able to read machine code, and parse hex/binary in my field.
100%.
There’s no relationship between UI and vibe coding.
Full stop
Okay good luck debugging difficult to describe edge cases.
I’m not gonna continue to argue with you. Suffice to say, I wouldn’t hire you.
Cheers.
You come across as somebody that would be hell to work for.
Full stop.
Yeah, I always use GIMP from the command line, it’s just faster.
Lol if you’re in graphic design you’re beyond cooked. Good luck out there.
The command line is also the ideal way to play Helldivers
