“We can talk about socialized healthcare and the evils of capitalism all day, but before we go any further I need you to pass this two-factor authentication by criticizing China and Russia.”
This comment is so real it hurts.
I just had someone trying to convince me that Russia can’t be imperialist because they oppose the US, an imperialist nation.
… that’s not the definition of “imperialist,” my dear tankie.
Not sure if linking it so others can laugh/cry is “brigading” worthy of getting me banned off of various Lemmy communities/instances or not.
Fuck it, here’s the thread:
but that’s not even what this post is suggesting we do. It’s just recognizing that China and Russia are also imperialist states, so we should be mindfull of where the information we consume comes from, since they’re all shoving propaganda down our throats and pitting us against one another, for their own imperialist intentions.
Ah yes, let’s complain when people post factual memes about countries that both commit genocide, and are both heavily invested in destabilizing western governments
I take it you’re one of those “free” thinkers too?
How hard is it to recognize that, yes, the US is fucking evil, yes, always has been, but that the exact same goes for Russia and China? Ooohh, what a concept, multiple parties being evil? *brain explodes
I can’t tell if this is directed at me or a hypothetical conversation with a tankie.
I’m 90% sure they’re directing it at a hypothetical tankie.
Don’t call tankies out that they’re tankies or they may get angry and ban you from instances.
I don’t mind being banned from tankie instances.
Lol same, it a light green flag to me
And apparently also make arguments for why Ukraine deserves their genocide.
“It’s just irredentism, it’s fine.”
… it’s fine because there’s a hyper-specific word for their aggression?
Not to mention Hitler invading his neighbors was also “just irredentism,” but I’m guessing these people don’t apply the same mental gymnastics in favor of fascists.
You’re so brave for agreeing with Western imperialists about their enemies.
Westerners do imperialism, and that’s wrong. But westerners also say “Imperialism is wrong”, which proves that they are critically thinking.
The Insidious Evil Easterners do double-plus imperialism, which is even wronger. And they don’t even realize its wrong, because they have been brainwashed.
That’s why Westerners need to fight the Insidious East and defeat them. Then the people will be liberated and the West - which was only doing imperialism in self-defense - can finally enact a lasting peace that will bring about a global utopia.
Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works.
Funny you think criticism of russian propaganda equates to support for the west
Seriously. I support both Ukraine and Iran in their wars.
i support the working people. sometimes as an expedient that means a small degree of support of national entities, but the most important thing is the freedom of the people.
Like, just rhetorically? Or are you jet-setting between the two battlefronts?
Definitely the latter.
That explains the hammock.
Any independent thinker should indeed seek to critically understand multiple perspectives, yes. Although even just being able to formulate perspectives of other countries, or being willing to challenge blatant misinformation will get you accused of being an imperialist by left-posturing Western chauvanists.
You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.” I’m guessing people will just be like, “Well what if they invaded Taiwan? The things happening purely in my imagination prove China bad.”
You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.”
Any conflict between the US and China in the Pacific Rim is described as “US Imperialism” from the Chinese perspective and “Chinese Imperialism” from the US perspective.
Any claim China makes along its border regions is Imperialism. Any naval actions made by the Chinese military is Imperialism. Any police action inside the recognized territory of China is imperialism. The entire 1.4B person population is routinely described as a Han monoculture.
The national economic plan is at once a failed project, doomed to collapse within the year, and a sinister plot to steal global market share for the most villainous purposes imaginable. China is, at once, the world’s biggest polluter and the perpetuator of a string of environmentalist “hoaxes”. It’s producing commodities, like consumer electronics and cars and steel girders and plastic widgets, too cheaply and quickly. But it’s also dogged by inefficient bureaucracy and COVID restrictions and an inherent cultural disinterest in entrepreneurship, so the country is constantly lacking essentials.
So they need to go out and steal other people’s stuff, whether its Taiwanese semiconductors or Middle Eastern fossil fuels or East African mineral wealth. And the government accomplishes this by tricking idiot liberals into doing business with them, while secretly infiltrating their societies with the most black-handed saboteurs and spies and assassins.
China is ontologically evil. Its politics is so authoritarian that the people don’t even realize they are being oppressed. But also the people DO realize they are oppressed and yearn for freedom. And if you don’t understand all of this to be true, you’re either an idiot or a LLM programmed to ignore the obvious and trick other people just like an Evil Chinese would.
The ways chauvanism can manifest and reassert itself, even when people rational recognize it as a bad thing in the abstract, are so crazy. The internalized indoctrination works like some kind of demon constantly whispering in people’s heads, trying to get them to come back around to “America #1!”
Criticism will either be overly specific, “This is just because of Trump, I miss when we had respectable Republicans like Bush,” or it will be overly general, “Yes, the US is bad, but only in the sense that all governments are bad.” Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
If the American government fails it must either be an exception, or an inherent flaw in all governments, because we’re the smartest, best, most moral and freedom-loving people in the world. Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed, if we failed, it could only be because the task is impossible. That’s how the chauvanists think, and so the conclusion is already determined before a single actual fact is considered.
Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
Even that is overly broad and kinda skitters over what it is that makes US empire a global horror.
Like, “ah bummer man the US sucks” doesn’t do justice to the pile of bloody backpacks at the Minab school attack. It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions. It’s not just a “aw shucks things are bad”. It’s a global campaign of eugenics, driven by a handful of plutocrats who have pegged their collective future on the advent of Computer God.
Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed
Unless they’re Norwegian, for some reason. Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”. And only when they build their society on the back of a petro-state.
It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions.
Classic “no way to prevent this” says only nation where this regularly happens. A part of me just wishes that the horrors could be contained to within our borders, but we have to make all of our shit everyone’s problem.
Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”.
The funniest part about this is how many people will be like, “The best approach is a mixture of socialism and capitalism” which is exactly what China is doing. I’ve tried so many times to get a coherent answer from the “China bad because billionaires” types as to whether the reforms in the 80’s were good or bad. The only response you’ll ever get from most of them is to call you a fascist for asking.
Had me in the first half, ngl.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism and the literal war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Edit: Read up on the Chinese Ethnic Unity Law: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/ethnic-unity-and-progress-law/
Whom will likely benefit the most: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_China
Read up on the Chinese Ethnic Unity Law
Some exerpts:
Article 4 In advancing the building of the community for the Chinese nation, economic, political, cultural, social and ecological-civilization development shall be coordinated; common prosperity and development for all ethnic groups shall be fully realized; the people of all ethnic groups shall be ensured the ability to jointly act as masters of the country; a shared spiritual home for the Chinese nation shall be built; all-round mutual embeddedness and extensive interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups shall be promoted; an ecological home in which humanity and nature coexist in harmony shall be jointly protected; and the Chinese nation shall be developed into a community with a stronger sense of identity and greater cohesion.
Article 5 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China are equal before the law. All ethnic groups in the People’s Republic of China are equal. Discrimination against or oppression of any ethnic group is prohibited.
Article 6 A sense of community for the Chinese nation is the foundation of ethnic unity. The state shall increase commonality while respecting and accommodating differences, promote mutual support and harmonious coexistence among all ethnic groups, and safeguard the great unity of the Chinese nation. Acts that undermine ethnic unity or create ethnic separatism are prohibited.
Article 8 The state shall uphold and improve the system of regional ethnic autonomy and safeguard national unity and ethnic unity.
Article 9 The state shall govern ethnic affairs in accordance with law, protect the lawful rights and interests of the people of all ethnic groups in accordance with law, strengthen publicity and education concerning the Constitution and laws, enhance the awareness of the state, citizenship and the rule of law among the people of all ethnic groups, safeguard the unity, dignity and authority of the socialist rule of law, and modernize the system and capacity for governance of ethnic affairs within the framework of the rule of law.
Article 15 The state shall comprehensively promote and popularize the standard spoken and written Chinese language. No organization or individual may obstruct citizens from learning or using the standard spoken and written Chinese language. Schools and other educational institutions shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language as the basic language of education and instruction. The state shall promote the learning of Putonghua by preschool children and the basic mastery of the standard spoken and written Chinese language by young people who complete compulsory education. State organs shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language for official purposes. Where documents are required by relevant laws to be issued in the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority, versions in both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the minority language shall be provided. Where state organs, social organizations, enterprises, public institutions or other social organizations need to use both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority in a public setting, prominence shall be given to the standard spoken and written Chinese language in terms of placement, order and other respects. The state shall respect and protect the learning and use of the spoken and written languages of ethnic minorities, promote their standardization, normalization and digital development, and support the preservation, collation, study and use of ancient books and records in minority languages.
Article 16 Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall carry the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation through the entire education process and incorporate them into an education system combining classroom instruction, social practice, themed education and online education. Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall use state-compiled textbooks in accordance with relevant state provisions. Education administrative departments shall implement the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation in the preparation and review of teaching materials. The departments of the State Council responsible for education administration, ethnic affairs and related work shall organize the preparation of series of textbooks or readers concerning the community for the Chinese nation.
Article 29 The state shall enhance mutual learning and integration among the cultures of all ethnic groups and encourage all ethnic groups to appreciate one another’s fine traditional cultures and learn one another’s spoken and written languages. People’s governments at all levels shall support cultural workers and relevant entities in creating and presenting literary and artistic works that are grounded in Chinese culture and reflect interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups. People’s governments at all levels shall support libraries, museums, cultural centers and stations, memorial halls, art museums, science and technology museums, workers’ cultural palaces, children’s and youth palaces and other public cultural-service entities in conducting exhibitions and exchange activities concerning the history of the Chinese nation, national prosperity and development, and related subjects. People’s governments at all levels shall draw on the Chinese nation’s rich cultural, sporting and other resources to encourage and support exchange activities, including traditional festivals of the Chinese nation, folk culture events and sporting competitions, that are welcomed and jointly participated in by the people of all ethnic groups.
So scary for our government with mandated representation of minorities to wish to encourage cultural exchange while instituting a common tongue to allow for our social and physical mobility while continuing to encourage the teaching of minority languages and writing systems. 😱
More complicated than what most people think considering the history of Taiwan. Imagine if fascist in your country seized a region via ethnic cleansing and then created a break away state. Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation? The only thing that complicates this is they eventually established a somewhat democratic government, after +40 years of violent authoritarianism.
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
Eh… Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
China is a superpower, you don’t get to that status without flexing that power. The reality is that every superpower in history regardless of what social economic system they utilize has to compete with an established hegemony to upset the status quo. You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
Compared to the leading superpower I’d hardly say their activity in their own backyard really can’t be compared to what the US is currently doing to control a waterway right now.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
I think Han chauvinism has long been an issue within China, even Mao spoke about it during his time in power. Do I think it’s as dire as it’s depicted in western media? No, but I do hope that the CCP takes more steps to integrate ethnic minorities into positions in higher government like the politburo. That being said, is the treatment of ethnic minorities on the same level or worse than in western nations…? Not really, which leads me to believe that ethnic chauvinism isn’t really a problem specific to any government or economic system.
war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Which the CCP openly admits was a misguided mistake, and apparently unlike other superpowers was something they actually learned from.
Minor border disputes are not imperialism.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
Projection.
and the literal war with communist Vietnam
Over 40 years ago lol. If the US had been at peace since Vietnam, I’d have very different opinions about it.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/imperialism
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
Bruh can’t even read a dictionary, lmao.
Projection
Lmao, who do you even think I am?
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
I find it incredible funny that I have seen many other people (me included) criticizing their country, all of the countries really… but I have never seen Objection saying a negative word about China. Not even once. On any matter.
I generally don’t go around shit-talking other countries that I don’t live in and have never been to. The only real exceptions being ones that are receiving military aid from my own country, such as Israel, because that makes it relevant to me.
For the record, I have and do criticize China on certain things, such as LGBT rights. But again, that’s pretty irrelevant to any political questions that are actually relevant to me and my life. What am I going to do about problems in China? What levers of power can I or should I assert to address their problems? It kinda seems like I should probably be a little bit more concerned about all the horrible things my own country is doing. Don’t talk shit about a splinter in their eye when there’s a wooden board in your own or something.
If there was a way for me to assert some lever of power against China, it would be through my own government. But that would only be a valid thing to do if my government wasn’t doing worse things, which is why it’s relevant to point out that the US is worse, in spite of the inevitable response of “whataboutism.”
If the discourse around here was upholding China as some utopia that we should all try to emulate in every regard, you would see me criticize it more. But because the discourse is more about how evil every single thing it does is, how every accusation should be believed completely uncritically, how we should support Western governments acting against it, etc, it’s only natural that that’s what you see me pushing back against the most.
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
That’s still not the same as minor border disputes.
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
Yes, decades long occupations, minor border clashes, both equally bad and equally requiring staunch opposition. You gonna go full “white lives matter” next? Or can we agree that focusing on the much, much bigger problem should be the priority?
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
“Gives me away” as what? If you’re going to accuse me of something, say it to my face.
It’s a lemmy.ml account, don’t bother feeding the propaganda bot
They brigaded you Dagnet. RIP.
Purged like their authoritarian heroes wished for dissidents, downvotes to the back of the head. :,(
And so they prove my point. Luckily those downvotes are as meaningless as their opinions
I’m so glad nobody cares when the US does “minor border disputes” the way they care about when China does it.
Oh wait…
I don’t care at all about any minor US border disputes. I’m not even aware of them. I do care about unprovoked decades-long invasions and occupations of sovereign countries, and things like that.
I swear to God, like can you even imagine how peaceful and wonderful the world would look if US was no more aggressive than China? Like, if the only things to criticize the US for were not doing landback or stuff that happened long before I was born, and maybe like one exchange of gunfire over Guantanamo Bay or something?
Such a world almost seemed possible when I was growing up in the 90’s. A period of relative peace (not counting bombing Yugoslavia) and optimism. But that was absolutely terrifying to our rulers. Do you know what world peace would do to companies like Raytheon and Lockheed Martin? No, instead we just have endless war and aggression, in every single corner of the world.
My own family paid the cost of your stupid imperialistic ambitions. My brother came back from the war so fucked up he nearly became a mass shooter. It was the most traumatic experience any of us have ever had.
Who the fuck is experiencing that because of the Chinese government? You think border disputes are equivalent to that? You’re completely full of shit. You have zero understanding of just how horrific war is. I don’t either, because I only got the secondhand exposure. But you go around, talking shit, saying that our government is no worse than others, blissfully ignorant because of the great strides our media goes to to shield you from the reality of what our soldiers are doing on the other side of that wall.
Fuck you. Fucking liberals, imperialist apologists, chauvanists the lot of you.
Tankie.
And proud of it. Because anyone who thinks critically, acknowledges basic, objective facts about reality, anyone who questions their own government and confronts their own presumptions and prejudices, is a “tankie” to you liberal, imperialist, chauvinists.
At least I don’t have the blood of a million Middle Easterners on my hands like you do.
Tankie.
I’m blessed with having long-time friends from various places in the world.
When people say Russia, do they include their government? Because the Russian government can fuck off alongside any government. I consider myself far left and I refuse to simp for any government or its leaders. Now if we’re talking about the Russian and Chinese working class, I’ll always support them.
Well of course we should support the international proletariat, even the ones heavily propagandized to the right such as in Russia and the US.
When people say Russia, do they include their government?
I would think that would be all they are including. regular russian civilians aren’t out there making a lot of propaganda, it’s all either state owned media or right-wing nationalist influencers.
So what’s your opinion of the US working class?
Support. We’re the most propagandized country in the world and need to be free of this tyrannical bullshit.
orca is not just friend-shaped but comrade-shaped
What qualifiers are there that we’re the most propagandized country in the world? I’m of the opinion that that’s an incredibly hard thing to truly know and quantify.
Yeah, I’d accept “we’re heavily propagandized,” but “most in the world” is quite the claim.
No government can wage a war for twelve years against wishes of their own population.
How do you explain the US wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan?
The US population elected a president who was promising to end the Afghanistan War in 2008. That war ended in 2021. That’s at least 12 years of war against the wishes of the majority.
Good question. For most of those years (goes for both wars) they just straight up lied about how bad things were going. Then there’s the propaganda. Holy hell, so much propaganda. Like not saying you’re wrong by asking that question but there are ways of selling unpopular wars.
Added to this, capitalists fucking LOVE wars. And without breaking capitalism all they’re really going to do about the majority coming out against war is say ‘yeah, what the fuck are you gonna do about it then?’
How do you explain the US wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan?
The Americans were asking for it. Did you see how they were dressed?
History says you are so, so wrong. Indisputably wrong
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Hey bud I don’t actually think you can get any further to the left than anarchism.
Meeh… Is there any historical instances that the anarchist purist consider anarchism that isn’t just defined in opposition to a “traditional” power structure?
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Ironically, calling anarchism “disorganization” is almost always a result of capitalist/authoritarian propaganda about what anarchism is. Sorry you can’t conceive of a world where people organize themselves without the use of oppressive violence.
Incorrect. Anarchism is against unjust hierarchies. It can absolutely be organized.
I still support worker-lead efforts. I just don’t fold to singular figures or authorities. I’ve watched people excuse abhorrent shit simply because it’s a person they otherwise like.
Au contrare, virtually all anarchists are ultra-left.
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I’m so confused. Does dude think the hegemon wants the best for all people? That is unbalance towards a big evil nation better than a bunch of them checking each other? I’m seeing a liberal in anarchist clothes instead of a Marxist doing analysis of the material conditions. A kid that never saw the USSR pushing global solidarity while its interests were not always benign, etc. Tell me how Libya, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan are now you bozo.
I mean. This isn’t the clearest meme is it? Lol
That also includes simping Putin and Xi.
You’re either with US, or you’re with the
TerroristsCommunists!
Russia, China, the US, the EU are imperial entities with imperial interests. None of them and non of their propaganda outlets care about the Ukrainian people.
Given that, it’s perfectly realistic that the US willingly engineered a situation where conflict was inevitable.
If you think the US wanted Ukraine in NATO for the good of the Ukrainian people, you’re delusional.
If you think the US invested millions in pro western „news outlets“ in Ukraine for the good of the Ukrainian peoples, you’re delusional.
Just as delusional as those that think Russia invaded Ukraine to liberate its people.
If you think the US wanted Ukraine in NATO for the good of the Ukrainian people, you’re delusional.
If the Ukrainians had just been included into NATO, the war would have never happened. That’s because the Russians are rational actors and long-term planners, who recognize a long-term disaster of a military conflict when they see one and always play a conservative, largely non-military game when they can.
The Ukrainians, once included into NATO, would immediately become a net asset for the organization thanks to their large and rapidly growing economy. Their top-tier military would add to the common defense. And it wouldn’t be long before they were inducted into the EU, because Western Europeans love Eastern immigrants and transplants crossing into their country en mass.
I think its abundantly clear that including Ukraine into NATO - and eventually the EU - would be a win-win for everyone involved. Even Russia. And the only reason Ukraine wasn’t added to NATO/EU before the war started is… uh… hmm…
Why didn’t Ukraine get admitted before the war started? Anyone remember?
I guess the people running NATO/EU are just stupid.
How are you defining China as imperialist? Does China engage in global politics? Yes. Do they engage with global Capital? Yes. Do they use soft power to achieve nationalist aims in national conflicts? Sometimes. Are they a hegemon? Depends how you define hegemony, but its a fair assessment.
Do they use their military might to spread their influence and national agenda? No. Do they have Military bases in other countries? No (Russia has like 12, USA has like 130). Do they try to expand their territory? They engage in border conflicts and Taiwan is contentious, but mostly no.
Imperialism is using military might to establish economic dominance or neocolonialism, to establish economic monopolies and an imperialists friendly ruling class in a foreign country. Influencing another country can be regarded as hegemony, depending on the definition of hegemony being used, and imperial countries are hegemonic. But hegemony is soft power, imperialism is hard, direct domination. Hegemony is not imperialism.
Looking back over your comment, and realizing you also consider the EU as imperial, I think you’re confusing hegemony, in an IR/sociological context, for imperialism. EU is not imperialist. They are a function of like global capitalism, which is imperialist, but EU is not imperialist.
Do they (China) try to expand their territory?
Well, they quitely took over what, 10% of Bhutan, since 2021 - and noone cares, because noone cares about Bhutan, right? Bhutan didn’t sold those territories, and isn’t even trying to defend them, because how would that work.
And that it is militarily a very good position in case they’d want to expand into India, that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.
I mean yeah, I get it, compare it to the empire of evil and it looks benign. But it isn’t good, just a lesser of two evils.
I mean, that’s a really good example! And I appreciate it. Do you have any more resources about it? The wiki article is a little vague, and it would be interesting to compare with border skirmishes w India.
I’m a little hesitant to frame things as “evil” but I get your point. Its really hard to pin down China international policy, IMO, so having something concrete to review is always helpful.
Separate comment because its easier to talk that way:
EU is not imperialist. They are a function of like global capitalism, which is imperialist, but EU is not imperialist.
That sentence does not make sense. Its a shade of green but not green makes no fucking sense.
France is absolutely imperialist on its own, the other EU powers are at least imperialist to the extent that they are and were directly involved in US imperialist wars. China is a different case, theoretically there is a possible future were china is the first post imperialist power. I think it’s much more likely though, that at some point they will use either military coercion, start militarily supporting „rebels“, or at some point do direct military intervention, to protect their investments abroad, the ones that they are currently building out.
Call me a cynic, but I think if China ever becomes the world hegemon, they will behave as such.
Hm. I mean, thats a really good point. Now you’ve got me thinking about the differences between neocolonialism and hegemony, as well as the difference between the historic imperialism of EU nations, vs the role of the EU; as well as like how the national interests of a formerly imperialist country functions within the imperialism of global capital. Not sure where to start but its a very compelling line.
Re: China as global hegemon, we are all becoming Mearsheimer-ists, aren’t we?
What way are you reading the meme because the government and mainstream media are incredibly hostile towards Russia and China.
I’m not sure how many MAGA people you know but most of them were running defense for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, essentially saying they should just give up and never should’ve been considered for nato. All of that is proven to be Russian propaganda + the election of Trump was helped massively by Russian bots convincing maga voters.
The enemy of my enemy isn’t necessarily my friend, they just happen to be aligned with me in that one, single, specific enimity.
It takes a lot more to be somebody one can trust than merely sharing a single dislike.
As I read it, that meme represents people who don’t actually think like this and instead whilst claiming to be skeptics blindly accept whatever they’re told by those who voice dislike of one or two of the same things they do (for example, American Imperialism).
Instead of trusting US imperialism, like a simp, they’re sucking straight from the teat of Russian imperialism instead, like a Chad. Is the meme. How are you reading it?
Maga has been on a IV drip from known Russian assets for a minute
Americans will ingest American Propaganda from an American billionaire backed by American industry in pursuit of American foreign policy and get called “Dupes of an Evil Foreign Insurgency” by their next-door neighbors who have been ingesting slightly different American Propaganda.
Don’t be so hasty!
We love propaganda from ANY source so long as it gives us that sweet xenophobic dopamine hit!
One of the bigger jokes of the whole “Russian Propaganda!” line has been how much modern Russian Propaganda is coming out of the same far-right white nationalist clearinghouses as the OG American shit. FFS, we’ve had everyone from Steve Bannon to Ross Douthet to Rod Dreher piling into Eastern Europe to saturate their media with the most dumb-baby US-grade bullshit. And then it’s come right back around again, like the distant echo of a particularly wet fart.
What people scream about from back in 2016, or the Tim Poole shit as recently as 2024, is perfectly interchangeable with your standard issue Rush Limbaugh / Ben Shapiro western chauvinism going back to the 1960s.
The character depicted at the bottom isn’t the government or mainstream media, it’s the “independent thinker”
Social media is today’s mass/mainstream media. Capitalist imperialists own both that and the traditional channels. They decide the message in both. Being hostile “officially” and contradicting that algorithmically is a choice
this is so ambiguous, because it’s making fun of the far right, because Donald Trump was accused of getting help from “Russians” when the libs decided to start a new Cold War. but also is attacking the far left, which is against imperial overreach and proxy wars against Russia.
the independent thinker is just someone who thinks hating Russia is dumb and goes out of their way to understand a “taboo” nation the West wants to destroy. On the right these people flock to Trump, Tucker Carlson, and Steve Bannon’s camp. on the left they’re actually independent and lack a political movement. they listen to podcasts like Chapo Trap House and maybe are involved with the DSA.
but also is attacking the far left, which is against imperial overreach and proxy wars against Russia.
The far left is against imperialism full stop, that includes Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
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Literal Russian propaganda.
Putin claimed that Ukraine had been committing genocide against Russian speakers in the region; that Ukraine’s government were neo-Nazis under Western control; that Ukraine was developing nuclear weapons; and that NATO was building up military infrastructure in Ukraine, threatening Russia.
Putin said that Russia was acting in self-defense, that its goal was the “demilitarization and denazification” of Ukraine, and claimed that Russia had no plans to occupy Ukrainian land. He threatened severe consequences for any country that intervened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin_speech_on_invading_Ukraine
In this case, “propaganda” is a matter of emphasis. I think that there is a very strong case to be made that the USA supported pro EU/pro NATO forces in Ukraine, with weapons, services, and goods, during and after Maidan. This aid influenced Ukraine to join NATO which was a hard red line for Russia. There is a strong case, and historic precedence to be made that the USA pushed, or at least nudged (using aid, which made up 90% of foreign aid) Ukraine to join NATO specifically to draw Russia into a long, protracted conflict with Ukraine.
NATO is an entity that was formed to stop Soviet “spread” into Europe. So.why does it still exist after the fall of USSR? It still functions as a hostile military front against Russia. It makes sense in any context that Russia would not permit a new NATO installation in Ukraine.
Does this justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Fuck no. But that doesnt mean that being objective about the history is propaganda, it means the lead up to the invasion was messy, there were western and Russian elements using Ukraine to carry out their own imperial agenda. Ukraine has been incredibly vulnerable and heavily exploited for a very long time. Ukraine had the lowest standard of living during the USSR, which dropped significantly after the fall, and basically never recovered. Post USSR Russia played a role in this, as did the USA, EU, and NATO.
Propaganda does not mean “facts that don’t suit my camp”. Such facts may be used in propaganda, but doesn’t make them false, context is everything. Being a pro-USA campist is also bad. Even if it puts you on the “side” of the victims in the invasion doesn’t give you the right to disregard the USA’s role in using Ukraine for their own imperialist aganda.
Edit: gonna post some links for reference https://thewallwillfall.org/2022/04/17/retired-swiss-intelligence-officer-explains-ukraine/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/788874844/how-u-s-military-aid-has-helped-ukraine-since-2014
https://www.stimson.org/2022/u-s-security-assistance-to-ukraine-breaks-all-precedents/
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea?s=08
Maybe they should stop having Nazi symbolism keep showing up in photographs and stop constantly celebrating the Nazi collaborationist UPA then the accusations will have no weight.
having Nazi symbolism
A fringe party with less than 1% popular support (could not find the actual number, IIRC about 12k votes total) tied to a far right paramilitary group of few hundred people does not mean a country is Nazi. Its as stupid as idk, like saying China is Nazi because of Kuomintang.
Or alternatively, if fringe support is enough to make Ukrainie a Nazi hotspot, then USA is Nazi Grand Poobah.
Dealers choice.
The government won’t do anything about it though. Nazi symbols should be a criminal offence to wear. And UPA members get streets, stadiums, and postage stamps named after them. An example being Roman Shukhevych who joined a Nazi battalion and helped the Germans murder Jews. This is not fringe stuff. It is grotesque that Ukraine tolerates this kind of thing.
then USA is Nazi Grand Poobah
These days, not far from the truth.
I think it is highly debateable that having Nazis in a country is justification to invade them, because that’s a justification for practically any country to invade practically any country. Especially when the Invading country is also full of neo-nazis.
I don’t support the invasion for what it’s worth. But it would be good if they carried out denazification with the same enthusiasm as they carry out decommunization. Soldiers wearing patches with swastikas, wolfsangels, SS runes and so on should face prosecution. So should showing support for the organisation which slaughtered Poles by the thousands between 1943-1945 with the explicit approval of Nazi Germany.
These things are ignored at best and encouraged at worst. I think Ukraine and Russia both have a Nazi problem. Neither government seems to care as long as it’s more bodies for the frontline.
Holy fucking victim blaming, batman.
“Ukraine deserved it” is surely one of the takes of all time.
Glad to know you can be ignored
What does imperialism mean to you?
It’s when a ruler is in a military dress uniform with a tall, feathery, hat.
Yeah, just trying to understand. You are literally the one pictured in the meme. You’ve spouted enough Russian disinfo that I already tagged you for it months ago.
Removed by mod
